I've got this feeling that there will be a post-war reconciliation between Britain and the US. Due to that, I'm of the belief that TTL's Great War will be very different from OTL or 191, in that the whole of the English-speaking world (The British Empire, the USA, and if it survives this war, the CSA) will be on the same side. The other side of the war will be a Franco-German (with the German half being both Prussia/Imperial Germany and Hapsburg Austria) alliance, with Russia being the wildcard that decides the outcome. Think Napoleonic Wars with WWI weaponry.
Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond
- Thread starter EnglishCanuck
- Start date
You're mad because @KingSweden24 went with his own ideas instead of doing something you wanted? I don't get what you are unhappy about.
I must say, @EnglishCanuck, I did not expect things to end in such a somber note for Lincoln. I was already shocked by McClellan winning, and I feel actually saddened by Lincoln's fate. It's not a complete failure, but still, I simply admire Lincoln as one of the greatest men in history so to see him fail is painful still. I look forward to seeing how McClellan does, but I have no faith whatsoever in him.
Germany naval power in any realistic tl would not support an intervention in the western hemisphere
Or the US and the British ally, as outward-facing industrialised, economically developed modern powers, and the backwards aristocratic plantocracy is as irrelevant to the Great War as Iberia or South America.
Why on earth does a British/Union reconciliation lead to an alliance of 'the whole of the English-speaking world?' Cecil Rhodes isn't writing this timeline.
No, I'm saying I liked what he did in the end.
I remember in the thread he himself made a comment that trying to force a USA vs. CSA conflict into Europe's alliance system made no sense, and I absolutely agree with that here.
Of course, that was in the context of a scenario where the USA never fought any of the European powers in the 1860s. Which is, uh, definitely not the case here. I am still inclined to think that, if there is any sentiment against the current war after it ends, it'll be against the south for leaving and being the ultimate cause of the war. Not that there won't be grievances against the UK for a while (people in Maine may stay grumble about the occupied counties for a bit) but really, losing the whole south is, I'd feel, worse than losing a minor border area with a few tens of thousands of people on it.
Oh, my bad, I must've misinterpreted the angle you were getting at u.u
Thank you! I'm glad I can evoke that emotion here! Lincoln was a tragic martyr in our own history, and in WiF he will be seen as, well, a bit of a tragic figure, but one that gets to live and largely write his own legacy, one his children will be fiercely protective of. His eldest son still wanted to fight in the war, and his two younger sons will have their own histories to write with one clearly taking the military path in the future!
Yeah, it felt bad to do to poor old Abe, but he was such a great man that I couldn't bear to have him killed, while I also couldn't have his legacy mean jack squat either. He was just such a moral man, who was fundamentally good he would, in my opinion, try to rise above even the worst circumstances presented to him. And thank you for the high praise! Its wonderful to evoke emotion through alternate history and events!
Oh I'm glad someone spotted that little nugget
Thank you! High praise that I can evoke emotion for the poor man! Glad I could confound and misdirect at least to this bitter end of 1864. However, I can say that Lincoln's greatest moment has not yet taken place! He has one more thing to live for. His post-presidential career - and that of his sons - will be, I hope, just as interesting as his career in the White House!
As for President McClellan... well, don't expect him to go on the list of greatest presidents (his attitude towards slavery was far too conciliatory IMO) but he won't be on the list of worst either, Depending on who you ask.
To be fair, the pro-Confederate intervention in TL-191 by the Anglo-French alignment is way more explicit/militant, so in that TL it does make a tad more sense for the US/CS to have gotten more aligned with European matters.
But still I agree with you that the extent they eventually do is unrealistic and done purely for parallelism
It will be different enough I can assure you! The balance of power in the Americas, Europe, Asia and Africa will look suitably different when the 20th century rolls around. I have it mostly squared away, but there's room for some changes. The Butterfly Effect is in full swing!
Some interesting speculation about Russia being a wildcard!
Well they might try it, though probably not...
There's not going to be any great effort towards the 'great rapprochement' like OTL for at least a generation in WiF. The Union didn't quite get mauled, but the white peace of 1815 doesn't exist here, and the Union is paying an indemnity until 1870 per the terms of the Treaty of Rotterdam, so they won't be forgetting the slight anytime soon. Not enough to risk another expensive war, but probably just enough to twist he lion's tail as the situation demands.
I did enjoy the Great War arc personally, but felt that too much in the interwar period was bit needlessly contrived to be blatant parallelism.
Timeline-191 a.k.a. the "Southern Victory" series by Harry Turtledove.
You certainly did! It's very hard to make good twists in alternate history, sounding like you both are speaking with the benefit of hindsight but also not making that hindsight clear. I really thought Lincoln would pull it off by the skin of his teeth. And, yes, I'm glad to hear Lincoln will have more good moments, but later reevaluation and appreciation isn't likely to be much comfort. As for McClellan, my main concern is slavery. I don't think he would require any Southern State to abolish slavery or ratify an amendment, making it possible for it to survive unless the Republicans get supermajorities. Actually, that's a very interesting prospect given that the OTL 1866 elections showed that Northerners broadly believed that a just settlement would include punishing the rebels by requiring them to abolish slavery and recognize Black civil rights.
Anyway, again, excellent work.
Lincoln's immediate legacy will be difficult, but ultimately he is someone who in Wrapped in Flames history will be kind to. His post war work will really secure him as a great statesman, if not necessarily a great president necessarily. He won't be in the US for the latter half of the 1860s I can tell you that. The man sincerely needs a break!
Though compared to his coming successors, many will wish for good old Abe.
Well McClellan and the Democrats of 1864 are about as much of a nightmare for abolishing slavery and protecting civil rights as George Wallace was towards civil rights a century later. McClellan doesn't have the outright racist animus of the Fire Eaters or other Copperheads, merely the paternalistic racial views of the era and a sense that the "peculiar institution" was protected by law and should not be interfered with by the Federal government. Which means that he will be exactly no good on the whole slavery issue unfortunately.
The 1866 elections here will be important, but more for the prelude they will show leading up to the election of 1868, which is going to be a wild one I can assure you!
But thank you again! Here's hoping I can race through 1865 to get to more interesting things!
Chapter 106: Let Us Have Peace
Chapter 106: Let Us Have Peace
“The longer a war lasts, the more things tend to depend on accidents. Neither you nor we can see into them: we have to abide their outcome in the dark. And when people are entering upon a war they do things the wrong way round. Action comes first, and it is only when they have already suffered that they begin to think.” ― Thucydides
“When McClellan was inaugurated on March the 5th of 1865 he spoke to the nation of “the calamities of war and disunion” making great sweeping declarations of the need for victory, but above all in his most remembered line he proclaimed: “Through four years of toil, invasion, bloodshed and calamity, the spirit of the nation has stood strong. No family has not had some part in this struggle, and no man who has served on land or on the rivers and the seas may say that this nation has not proved the equal of its foes. I have though, heard the cry of the people and it is my honor to carry out the will of the people. From two millions of throats we hear the plea ‘let us have peace’ and I am honor bound to deliver it. Whether by the olive branch or the sword, only our wayward countrymen may decide!”
It was in this speech he made plain his intentions. His administration would deliver peace to the United States for the first time in over four years. How it would be done, so he declared, was entirely up to Richmond…
The first peace feelers had, in fact, come in early February of 1865. While McClellan and Lincoln had engaged in little productive military talk, Lincoln and McClellan shared a mutual friend who was likely to be able, and willing, to serve as an unofficial ambassador from Washington.
Francis P. Blair was one of the founders of the new Republican Party. A Free Soil Republican, he was not as hostile to slavery where it existed as many of his contemporaries. He also believed that there was still a chance to peacefully reintegrate the South into the United States. He was personal friends with Jefferson Davis, and had become something of an unofficial advisor to Lincoln during the war. From his extensive mingling with Democrats and Whigs before the war, he was comfortable and on good terms with men from every party, including Davis. He was delighted to lead the mission to Richmond.[1]
McClellan agreed that sounding out the Confederate willingness to make peace was of paramount importance. If the war had dragged on long enough that it could now be won without fighting, without a ruinous and bloody conflict to subjugate the South, then that was worth any concessions. From many in his cabinet’s perspective, McClellan included, the war might also be won without a social revolution. The fear of changing the status quo of 1860 was very real. While McClellan himself was realist enough to know that some change would be necessary, he was convinced he needed to make it as limited as possible to knit the nation back together.
To that end, Blair was given permission to approach Richmond with the blessing of both the outgoing President and the President elect. He was not, however, granted any say in setting terms or promising anything on behalf of the incoming administration. He was merely to sound out the desire of the South to come to the negotiating table for ‘equitable talks on the cessation of hostilities’ in the words of Barlow. Blair accepted these restrictions without complaint, and he was given permission to travel between the lines on February 12th 1865…” - I Can Do It All: The Trials of George B. McClellan, Alfred White, 1992, Aurora Publishing
“Blair’s arrival in Richmond was greeted with great cheer by the populace. Though there had been some effort to protect his anonymity, Davis had his own peace party to contend with. The “Saint Valentine’s Day Arrival” was lauded in friendly newspapers as a stroke of genius by Davis in ‘treating with a representative of the North.’ In reality of course, Blair himself portrayed it as nothing more than calling on an old friend as though he had not just traversed through the lines between two hostile armies.
The February 14th meeting was, in many ways, anticlimactic. Blair could only offer assurances that the new president was willing to discuss terms. He had no terms to offer. In return, Davis could not offer any conditions he was willing to accept beyond a cessation of hostilities. The two men effectively talked around one another for nearly two hours on the subject, and Blair could say little because he indeed knew little of the new president’s plans. In return, Davis could only agree that he and his administration would meet ‘in good faith’ regarding any armistice…” - Through Fire and Fury: The Davis Administration, William A. Davis, Random House, 1999
Francis P. Blair
“Even though McClellan had, by the beginning of his administration, clear information that the South wanted to negotiate, it seems as though McClellan had not made up his mind to negotiate. Clearly, many in his cabinet wanted to, but he was not initially moved by such talk.
Seymour and Price were both adamant that McClellan “fulfill the will of the people and offer an olive branch to the South to end this fratricidal war of Mr. Lincoln[2]” (Price). In their minds, negotiating was the only proper tactic. Price it is said, even declared that a naval war could not continue because the South now possessed such a superiority in ironclads. McClellan though initially unconvinced, was less convinced by his new Secretary of War’s bellicosity.
Butler believed that “though through a great shedding of blood and treasure, the South may be brought to heel. The need for a firm demonstration of means is all this is necessary to push negotiations our way.”
McClellan, well aware that Butler had not seen battle for most of the war, was leery of his Secretary’s assessment writing his wife “if the man rode his desk in Boston as well as he rides it in Washington it is a wonder England never marched through Massachusetts.” Instead he made to tour the front lines in April, and he liked little of what he saw. The men were not enthusiastic at his presence, a fact McClellan found deeply upsetting. He was to blame much of this on the wars unpopularity rather than project any image of disrespect he might have incurred amongst the army.
Many soldiers believed, or at least claimed to believe, that McClellan would not fight. His common cause with the Copperheads was not perceived well. “The boys don’t think he’ll fight, so why should they waste their lives in a lost cause?” Meade would note in a melancholic letter to his wife. Another melancholic soldier would write in his diary that McClellan had led the army for a year and a half which during “I do think he should have given some evidence of military genius in that time.[3]”
The only places he found a warm welcome were those places he had returned to the command of his favorites like Franklin in the XII Corps where he had replaced Sigel. There the men cheered, but this was an island of more than likely stage-managed respect in a sea of indifference or in some cases, outright hostility. The President did make a point of trying to visit with men from states which had not voted for him, but he deliberately shunned black units, an obvious nod to his opinion of black soldiers.
With this in mind, McClellan dithered through April on the matter of an armistice. He would not commit one way or another until the political pressure grew too great and he grudgingly aceded to the demands of his party to reach out for a ‘temporary cessation of hostilities’ on May 3rd 1865…
Orders went out to all the armies of the United States. The guns were to fall silent unless an accord between North and South could be reached…" - I Can Do It All: The Trials of George B. McClellan, Alfred White, 1992, Aurora Publishing
“With those orders in mind, McClellan, with the limited input of his cabinet, laid out his conditions for peace with the South.
In a memorandum written May the 5th he declared that peace would be had under these terms:
- The Rebel government shall agree to dissolve
- All property of the United States Government was to be returned
- The Armies of the so-called Confederacy were to disband, with soldiers and officers paroled to their homes upon the surrender of all stores and weapons
- A six month period would take place wherein new state governors and legislatures would be chosen to send new representatives to Washington
- All such men would be required to take an oath of allegiance before taking up their posts
- No interference shall be made with the institution of slavery where and how it exists
- Federal soldiers would respect the private property of citizens, this would include enslaved property
- Amnesty was to be offered to all men who had served the Confederacy, save for those who could be determined to have committed some grievous crime (the nature of the crime was not specified) against the United States. This would include all members of the Confederate government.
Blair was once again to pass on the notes, but this time his father in law Randolph Marcy would go as military representative of McClellan - and as his personal envoy. Accompanying them would be George Pendleton to act as an official observer from the government. They departed the capital on May 15th to reach Richmond…” To Arms!: The Great American War, Sheldon Foote, University of Boston 1999.
“When Marcy and Blair presented McClellan’s peace terms in Richmond and advised that they could offer amnesty to “rebels in arms against the United States,” Davis and his cabinet scoffed. “Amnesty Sir, applies to criminals,” Davis declared. “We have committed no crime. At your door lies the misery and crime of this war, perhaps not instigated by your party but supported by men beholden to it. Your President may march on Richmond, declare an eternal war and swear vengeance before Almighty God, but we will be free. We are fighting for independence, and that or extermination we shall have. We will govern ourselves if we have to see every Southern plantation sacked and every Southern city in flames![4]”
Such uncompromising rhetoric should not have come as a shock after four years of war, but it clearly shook the envoys. They telegraphed Washington with trepidation, Marcy saying “We may find ourselves on the warpath, or like Joshua in Canaan, demanded to drive the Southerners before us.”
This news was not pleasant reading in Washington. McClellan had hoped that the offer of reunion on a status quo antebellum, in exchange for the blanket amnesty, would at least induce the South to meet him halfway. With Davis and his cabinet refusing even such generous terms, then perhaps he had no choice but to return to war. The question was, could he do so? Much as he desired to restore the Union, the two months of peace had an effect on the nation.
Between May and June of 1865 no battles had been fought. The partial blockade of the Confederacy continued, but McClellan had authorized no naval action beyond the Florida Keys. Now there was a sense of drudgery and malaise in the army and navy. The armistice McClellan had granted in early May dogged at his heels as the two sides stared at one another across the lines. Many soldiers fraternized openly, and many whimsical letters went home expressing a hope for the end of the war.
The question then became, could McClellan outfox his foes at the negotiating table? He, in principle, had agreed to a convention of the states. If he brought together negotiators from every state in the Union, even those in rebellion, could he then manage to find common ground enough that the rebel states would overrule Richmond? This was Seymour’s question posed to a cabinet meeting on The 29th. McClellan thought the idea had merit. Using that time the army could be reorganized, and if there was no satisfactory conclusion in thirty days, the war could resume…” - I Can Do It All: The Trials of George B. McClellan, Alfred White, 1992, Aurora Publishing
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1] Blair was a friend of McClellan, Lincoln and Davis OTL, and carried a similar proposal on behalf of doves in Washington in 1864 as well. Famously shown in the film Lincoln! A bit of a jack of all trades political wheeler and dealer.
2] This is close to what Price said about the war in 1861 and 1863. He always called it “Lincoln’s War” and not a civil war. Copperhead he was, through and through. OTL he kept his head down, save for the start of the war and the Emancipation Proclamation, but his career here is meant to mirror the opinions of the Copperheads in Wrapped in Flames, wherein many support the war against Britain, but still want peace with the South.
3] True bit of wording from McClellan’s 1862 dismissal. Not all soldiers were enamored with him, and here many simply hope that he will either not waste their lives poorly or want him to end the war so they can go home. Historically he failed to get the soldiers vote, and he has no more love from them here.
4] Pretty much Davis’s reaction to the late 1864 peace proposals Blair delivered. After four years many in the South did want independence. Here that attitude is more pronounced than ever.
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Honestly it would be so funny that Little Mac is forced to essentially continue the war because the South simply does not accept any of his generous peace offers and he can't chicken out of the war either, although it makes me wonder what sort of possible reconstruction could happen under him.
McClellan would really be helped if he were a politician rather than a manager. His own party has a view that peace is good, but what sort of peace is a very different matter indeed. Meanwhile, the split Republicans could live with peace, but not one that protects slavery as McClellan intends to do. If McClellan could weld the War Democrats and the moderate Republicans into a temporary coalition to force through this effective white peace - or even to back his continuing of the war - then he could actually sit on solid ground for 1865 until the House elections of 1866 to set policy.
However for Reconstruction, it's basically what he proposes there. A white peace and effectively a status quo antebellum politically, but with new state representatives from the governor on down, and only brief interruption to the process of running the states.
Certainly he's open to punishing people who rebelled (and that blanket amnesty definitely won't apply if war resumes) but he has no interest in wholesale punishment of the Confederacy. He'd be more lenient than Andrew Johnson that's for certain. Above all, he and many other Democrats, were trying to avoid a social revolution that the Emancipation Proclamation represented, it was why they used extremely racist propaganda in much of their electoral language OTL (and to be fair, TTL, I simply don't wish to use it here).
Either way, he's slowly backing himself into a corner to do things he didn't want to do in the first place, despite thinking he's coming out ahead.
Also, wow! 500,000 views! Thanks so much to everyone who has read, commented, and been supportive of this whole adventure from the start and especially the new readers coming along now!