I would think that such an action will instead gather the enmity of some of the others, even if they were on the winning side. Some weren't so much pro-Tokugawa as simply anti-Ishida, so once they see the Tokugawa destroying clans that disobey them, they might start to get second thoughts on the whole issue.
WI/AHC: Tokugawa State Christian Church
- Thread starter MerryPrankster
- Start date
I would think that such an action will instead gather the enmity of some of the others, even if they were on the winning side. Some weren't so much pro-Tokugawa as simply anti-Ishida, so once they see the Tokugawa destroying clans that disobey them, they might start to get second thoughts on the whole issue.
I'm talking more about destroying those clans slowly while appeasing the ones that remain loyal if they are so scared about this 'enmity' thing.A good number of clans were destroyed during the long Tokugawa rule to my knowledge.After ruling for a few decades,they should have the political capital to destroy these clans?
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Yeah, avoiding doing it right after Sekigahara. Still, I doubt the Tokugawa would completely get rid of enmity against them.
PhilippeO
Banned
Ieyasu probably doesn't have power to do this. He control only 1/3 to 1/2 of land in Japan, to utterly destroy Mori and Shimazu would mean another decades or more of total war, which he could easily lost. and Mori and Shimazu are neutral and didn't participate in Sekigahara, to attack neutral would alarm all other daimyos, even his supporters, of tyranny.
Mori, Shimazu, Maeda, Date, all strong enough to fight for years. Ieyasu advantage is that his enemy/competitor fail to unify, so he gain Shogunate, but as Meiji revolution proves, <b> _alliances_ </b> of several big daimyo can topple him. Tokugawa 300 years rule is managed by never push daimyo too far, destroying individual daimyo only when he had pretext, and maintain alliance (and marriages) with many other daimyos.
if i remember, the fact that Oda descended from Taira is reason why he never gained Shogun title. (Tokugawa descended from Minamoto)
it should be remembered that Tokugawa marry with Tozama several times, not all Tozamas is permanent enemy of Tokugawa. several of them fought for Tokugawa during Meiji restoration. also Shimazu and Mori location (SW) and contact with European military helped a lot in their decision to test Tokugawa powers.
trurle
Banned
I see wild speculations are proliferating. so adding a basic data on Christianity in Japan extracted from Japanese wikipedia:
Persecuttion of Christinanity in Japan formally started in July 1587 with Kyushu edict forbidding missionary work, and requesting Daimyo conversion to Christianity to be approved by highest authority. The following problems in order of decreased severity were cited:
1) Problem with taxation of Christian subjects - they did not pay many taxes, mostly related to Buddhist shrines support.
2) Export of Japanese citizens as slaves, especially sex slaves
3) Religious violence (burning of shrines in particular)
The law was absolutely not enforced until San Filipe incident in 1596 though.
In 1596, the damaged Spanish galleon San Filipe has entered port Tosa, in Shikoku island. Crew was detained and cargo confiscated following Portugese claims of galleon being the scout of imminent Spanish invasion. Some reckless/bold statements from Spanish captain, and armed resistance by ill-disciplined, formerly piracy-associated Spanish crew has further convinced Japanese of Portugese allegations being correct. As a result, Franciscan order was expelled from Japan in 1597, and 26 missionaries (foreign and Japanese) were executed.
In 1602-1603, a lot of orders of Christian Church has arrived in Japan, notably Ausustines and Benedictians. Rivalry between Christian faction raised to unprecedented level, and new orders acted bolder and more aggressive compared to well-establisheds Jesuites.
In 1609-1610, Christian daimyo Arima was involved in serious corruption scandal related to compensation paid for incident resulting in 48 Japanese deaths in Macao (although incident itself was not related to christians). This incident significantly spoiled image of Christianity in eyes of Bakufu top leadership.
In 1612, additional area rule restricting Christians in Edo and Kyoto was enacted, citing a rising sectarian violence. Daimyo Arima was honorably executed after a prolonged legal actions.
In 1613 and 1614, following a flares of religious violence (associated most prominently with Siege of Osaka in 1614), country-wide bans on Chistianity with increasing scope and strictness were enacted. Jesuits were expelled in 1614, and open missionary activity in Japan has come to the halt.
Persecuttion of Christinanity in Japan formally started in July 1587 with Kyushu edict forbidding missionary work, and requesting Daimyo conversion to Christianity to be approved by highest authority. The following problems in order of decreased severity were cited:
1) Problem with taxation of Christian subjects - they did not pay many taxes, mostly related to Buddhist shrines support.
2) Export of Japanese citizens as slaves, especially sex slaves
3) Religious violence (burning of shrines in particular)
The law was absolutely not enforced until San Filipe incident in 1596 though.
In 1596, the damaged Spanish galleon San Filipe has entered port Tosa, in Shikoku island. Crew was detained and cargo confiscated following Portugese claims of galleon being the scout of imminent Spanish invasion. Some reckless/bold statements from Spanish captain, and armed resistance by ill-disciplined, formerly piracy-associated Spanish crew has further convinced Japanese of Portugese allegations being correct. As a result, Franciscan order was expelled from Japan in 1597, and 26 missionaries (foreign and Japanese) were executed.
In 1602-1603, a lot of orders of Christian Church has arrived in Japan, notably Ausustines and Benedictians. Rivalry between Christian faction raised to unprecedented level, and new orders acted bolder and more aggressive compared to well-establisheds Jesuites.
In 1609-1610, Christian daimyo Arima was involved in serious corruption scandal related to compensation paid for incident resulting in 48 Japanese deaths in Macao (although incident itself was not related to christians). This incident significantly spoiled image of Christianity in eyes of Bakufu top leadership.
In 1612, additional area rule restricting Christians in Edo and Kyoto was enacted, citing a rising sectarian violence. Daimyo Arima was honorably executed after a prolonged legal actions.
In 1613 and 1614, following a flares of religious violence (associated most prominently with Siege of Osaka in 1614), country-wide bans on Chistianity with increasing scope and strictness were enacted. Jesuits were expelled in 1614, and open missionary activity in Japan has come to the halt.
Well, I'd say that because, apparently, the Mori and the Tokugawa made a deal before the battle that promised territorial integrity in return for the Mori clan's neutrality at Sekigahara (or at least the Mori were offering). Which contributed quite heavily to Ieyasu's victory. They felt a bit betrayed, having lost 2/3 of their land after expecting leniency, and that carried over.
Never said the Tokugawa shouldn't have cut down the Tozama clans, just said the Mori in particular weren't guaranteed to be hostile to the shogunate until after they lost most of their land after expecting...not losing that much land.
I think they would have just conspired to rebel if they weren't cut down.
So avoiding the San Felipe incident could be a viable POD. What's this about Japanese nationals getting trafficked as sex slaves? That seems like something the Catholic hierarchy SHOULD crack down on, as it blatantly contradicts Church teachings about sex, the Golden Rule, etc.
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
If I recall correctly, that was an 'enterprise' by secular Portuguese/Spanish captains who were defying church ruling.
And, I know that trurule might object, but the Japanese were trading in Korean slaves around that time, as well.
trurle
Banned
I.m.h.o., slave trade by Christian (nominally) merchants was important but not critical in the sequence of events which lead to expulsion of Christian missionaries. After all, slave trade was legal in 1587 for all parties involved (aborted in 1590 in Japan, 1595 in Portugal (for Asian slaves), 1818 in Spain), although considered immoral. In last stages of persecution, the burning of Buddhist temples is what alienated Shogunate from Christian ideas. "Today they burn temples. Tomorrow they will burn palaces." - was the baseline idea.
Given political atmosphere, avoiding San Felipe incident will give Christianity may be 5-7 years relapse, but ultimate outcome is still going to be the same. The increased competition between Christian orders will result in severe blackmail and loss of utility of Christianity in eyes of Shogunate leadership.
What may be useful is the more limited set of countries sending missionaries to Japan. This will require PODs back to 1580 or even around 1540 to give a firm control to Taiwan, northern Philippines and DEI to only one entity (instead of mosaic of Portugese, Spanish and Dutch colonies)
Have Australia be discovered earlier and attract the attention of one of those countries. Of course the trade won't be near as lucrative. Are Australia or Tasmania's mineral resources exploitable in the 16th century?
Maybe there is an acceptable POD to have one or two of those countries focus on SE Asia.
Or maybe an earlier discovery of South African gold would draw the Dutch and Portuguese away?
trurle
Banned
Australia/Tasmania do not have a particular wealth of minerals compared to other regions. Only the general depletion of mineral resources by 19th century made Australian ores look rich.
Gold elsewhere..yes, it may help to reduce competition in SE, but also will decrease number of colonists/missionaries to SE Asia which was a meager to begin with. In this case, Christianity may persist in Japan during Edo period as a minor religion without blowing country apart contrary to IOTL expectations.