WI/AHC: Tokugawa State Christian Church

[trurle]

Erm, no, not really. Japan was a very different proposition to a small American tribe: it was much farther away, much better organised, and much more technologically advanced. There's no way the Spanish could have maintained a large enough force to conquer it during the 17th century.

Jesuits were experts in inducing political disorganization. Or at least the Dutch reports from Eighty Years War (started in 1635) says so. Imagine Eighty Years War fought on two fronts, in Japan and Dutch. Well, it will likely bankrupt Spanish Empire even before OTL dates, but not before the Japan will slide back into theocratic chaos of 13th-15th centuries, from which any winning party (including pro-Spanish) can emerge. Fabius Maximus and Dragos Cel Mare are correct what Spanish military power was not enough to conquer Japan, but what really needed was to trigger a civil war. Tokugawa Shogunate in 17th century have just barely stabilized, and internal sectarian conflict was sufficient to bring it down. Or at least it was horror scenario Tokugawa Ieyasu has feared back in 1614.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Jesuits were experts in inducing political disorganization. Or at least the Dutch reports from Eighty Years War (started in 1635) says so. Imagine Eighty Years War fought on two fronts, in Japan and Dutch. Well, it will likely bankrupt Spanish Empire even before OTL dates, but not before the Japan will slide back into theocratic chaos of 13th-15th centuries, from which any winning party (including pro-Spanish) can emerge. Fabius Maximus and Dragos Cel Mare are correct what Spanish military power was not enough to conquer Japan, but what really needed was to trigger a civil war. Tokugawa Shogunate in 17th century have just barely stabilized, and internal sectarian conflict was sufficient to bring it down. Or at least it was horror scenario Tokugawa Ieyasu has feared back in 1614.

The Dutch had a vested interest in taking over the Spanish and Portugese's trade, including the one with Japan. Not to mention that the Jesuits' reputation, including that in the Catholic Church itself (See 'Suppression of the Jesuits') is mostly propaganda spread by envious enemies.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

And before Jesuits' activities in England is used as proof that 'Jesuits are natural conspirators', I would like to remark that those failed.

 

[BellaGerant]

Wait, that weakness still stood 200 years later?

It's worth noting that, during the Boshin War, much of the Imperial side had been harboring anti-Tokugawa sentiments since Sekigahara, like the Shimazu and the Mori. They waited 260 years to finally get their vengeance. For the Mori, Ieyasu could've avoided that by not reducing their holdings to a third of its original size. But the shogunate had quite a few enemies and that never really went away.

 

[MerryPrankster]

It's might as well be ASB, The Tokugawa Shogunate was founded on a shaky a system of an alliance of the Tokugawa clan and their supporters, and punishing those clans that sided with Ishida Mitusnari, the moment that balance changed and blood was in the water the Boshin War happened. State enforcement of a foreign faith, that wasn't culturally mixed into the nation is not going to happen with the Tokugawa, who valued stability for a reason. If they push too hard and alienate their allies, you're not going get an earlier Boshin War but something that still has the potential to be very violent.

I wasn't suggesting the Tokugawa force everybody to be Christian, but that Christians be under state control.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Even if the Buddhists were initially enemies of the Shogunate, they seemed to have been forced in line enough that the Shogunate trusted them with verifying people weren't Christians anymore.

 

[Faeelin]

The Dutch had a vested interest in taking over the Spanish and Portugese's trade, including the one with Japan. Not to mention that the Jesuits' reputation, including that in the Catholic Church itself (See 'Suppression of the Jesuits') is mostly propaganda spread by envious enemies.

I don't know man. The Spanish sources are replete with predictions of, at least in China, how the local Christians would rally to their Spanish invaders and form a new hybrid race that would be awesome.

(I am quite serious).

 

[Fabius Maximus]

I don't know man. The Spanish sources are replete with predictions of, at least in China, how the local Christians would rally to their Spanish invaders and form a new hybrid race that would be awesome.

(I am quite serious).

Now there's a TL idea if ever I saw one!

 

[ATP45]

The Dutch had a vested interest in taking over the Spanish and Portugese's trade, including the one with Japan. Not to mention that the Jesuits' reputation, including that in the Catholic Church itself (See 'Suppression of the Jesuits') is mostly propaganda spread by envious enemies.

Indeed.Protestants simply lied about spanish conqest - both Aztec and Inca Empires was conqered by bunch of vagabonds without any ties to Spain Crown.Spanish Kings did not even knew about Aztecs and Incas,so could not send anybody to conqer them.Interesting,why Jesuits did not just say about it.I do not think,than Tokugawa would be worried about less than 1000 invaders - becouse that was a number of Pizzarro men.Cortez had less than 2000.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

@trurle , Anyway, if I get banned (again) for my earlier deleted remark, can you intercede with the Mods/CalBear for me?

Also, yeah, direct quotation from the document:



Reposting with a proper mention.

No one is getting banned, dude, you're good.

 

[Timaeus]

I don't know man. The Spanish sources are replete with predictions of, at least in China, how the local Christians would rally to their Spanish invaders and form a new hybrid race that would be awesome.

(I am quite serious).

To be fair, they were on a high from their victories of two empires in the Americas. Victory disease was a thing back then too.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

I don't know man. The Spanish sources are replete with predictions of, at least in China, how the local Christians would rally to their Spanish invaders and form a new hybrid race that would be awesome.

(I am quite serious).

Now there's a TL idea if ever I saw one!

To be fair, they were on a high from their victories of two empires in the Americas. Victory disease was a thing back then too.

The Spanish were delusional and that threat presented should not be taken seriously.

 

[Faeelin]

The Spanish were delusional and that threat presented should not be taken seriously.

They were delusional, but that is a sign they would try.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

They were delusional, but that is a sign they would try.

Good point and an ill-advised expedition would still be a propaganda victory for the Anti-Christians in Japan.

On the other hand, Alessandro Valignano and his pupils would probably side with the Japanese against the Spanish if the latter tried that if the article I linked is right (Just as the Jesuits in Paraguay stood up to the Portuguese when the latter tried to enslave the native tribes). Or more likely, try and use diplomatic means to sabotage and obstruct a potential Spanish invasion. At the very least, that Missionary who remarked that he was 'More Japanese than Italian' would be outraged.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Good point and an ill-advised expedition would still be a propaganda victory for the Anti-Christians in Japan.

On the other hand, Alessandro Valignano and his pupils would probably side with the Japanese against the Spanish if the latter tried that if the article I linked is right (Just as the Jesuits in Paraguay stood up to the Portuguese when the latter tried to enslave the native tribes). Or more likely, try and use diplomatic means to sabotage and obstruct a potential Spanish invasion. At the very least, that Missionary who remarked that he was 'More Japanese than Italian' would be outraged.

Ugh, I can't believe I said this, but I stand by it. The Jesuits were not a monolith, and there were occasions where they sided with native converts over fellow Europeans. That was one of the real reasons they got suppressed IOTL, dangit.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

And before Jesuits' activities in England is used as proof that 'Jesuits are natural conspirators', I would like to remark that those failed.

As an aside, the way people in Elizabethan England looked on the Jesuits as a bunch of evil, devious liars always seemed strange to me. "Right men, so if you find any Jesuits, arrest them, torture them, then execute them horribl-- Wait, what do you mean they're pretending not to be Jesuits? That's not fair!"

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

As an aside, the way people in Elizabethan England looked on the Jesuits as a bunch of evil, devious liars always seemed strange to me. "Right men, so if you find a Jesuit, arrest them, torture them, then execute them horribl-- Wait, what do you mean they're pretending not to be Jesuits? That's not fair!"

Indeed. The Jesuits, quite frankly, are much-maligned for reasons that, at best, are exaggerated.

 

[Avrorrange]

It's worth noting that, during the Boshin War, much of the Imperial side had been harboring anti-Tokugawa sentiments since Sekigahara, like the Shimazu and the Mori. They waited 260 years to finally get their vengeance. For the Mori, Ieyasu could've avoided that by not reducing their holdings to a third of its original size. But the shogunate had quite a few enemies and that never really went away.

Why not obliterate the Shimazu and the Mori to begin with?The Mori's lands were extremely large without a cutdown.With a massive vassal like this,there's probably bigger problems if the Mori were not cutdown at all.

 

[BBadolato]

Wait, that weakness still stood 200 years later?

Yes, most if of the imperial forces in the Boshin were clans like the Mori and Shimazu who sided against the Tokugawa at Sekigahara, and were punished for it as Tozama or outsider Daimyo. Basically, Oda Nobunaga could have had the power to conquer and rule Japan and have the legitimacy to become Shogun, which was ideal. Toyotomi Hideyoshi had power but no legitimacy, while Tokugawa Ieyasu had legitimacy but no overwhelming power. Because of that, the Tokugawa were big on limiting destabilizing influences and wanted strict control over everything as much as possible.

Why not obliterate the Shimazu and the Mori to begin with?The Mori's lands were extremely large without a cutdown.With a massive vassal like this,there's probably bigger problems if the Mori were not cutdown at all.

The Mori and Shimazu and all other Tozama daimyo were cut down in terms of land and power, the Mori were moved from their ancestral home of Aki to Nagato, and Shimazu confined to Satsuma.

 

[Avrorrange]

Yes, most if of the imperial forces in the Boshin were clans like the Mori and Shimazu who sided against the Tokugawa at Sekigahara, and were punished for it as Tozama or outsider Daimyo. Basically, Oda Nobunaga could have had the power to conquer and rule Japan and have the legitimacy to become Shogun, which was ideal. Toyotomi Hideyoshi had power but no legitimacy, while Tokugawa Ieyasu had legitimacy but no overwhelming power. Because of that, the Tokugawa were big on limiting destabilizing influences and wanted strict control over everything as much as possible.



The Mori and Shimazu and all other Tozama daimyo were cut down in terms of land and power, the Mori were moved from their ancestral home of Aki to Nagato, and Shimazu confined to Satsuma.

About the Tozama clans,I was referring to the other poster's belief that they shouldn't cut down any of the Tozama clans' powers to earn their enmity.It's basically impossible not to destroy or at the very least cut them down in power--given how much land they possess.To fully ensure that their 'enmity' is not a threat,they should have just been fully destroyed instead of letting them go scotch free after Sekigahara like the other poster mentioned.