finally I believe that this is enormously to the advantage of the Franks who will see their neighbors assimilated or weakened enough, given that a Roman reoccupation of Britain will necessarily have to coincide with a military campaign against the Saxon, Angle, Frisian and Jute pirates who have the their main outposts in Frisia ( and are bordering the Franks to the south ) while a reconciliation of imperial power in Gaul will inevitably affect the Burgundians and the Alemanni and in minor part theThuringii ( who exploited the area both as a raiding and settlement ground )
The Western Flame Burns On: A Majorian timeline
- Thread starter Flavius Iulius Maiorianus
- Start date
finally I believe that this is enormously to the advantage of the Franks who will see their neighbors assimilated or weakened enough, given that a Roman reoccupation of Britain will necessarily have to coincide with a military campaign against the Saxon, Angle, Frisian and Jute pirates who have the their main outposts in Frisia ( and are bordering the Franks to the south ) while a reconciliation of imperial power in Gaul will inevitably affect the Burgundians and the Alemanni and in minor part theThuringii ( who exploited the area both as a raiding and settlement ground )
still remaining on the subject, a more solid Western Rome that manages to cross the era of migrations more or less intact ( which in theory ends at least in the 9th century more or less, but which has its culmination in this period ( V - VI century ) also means consolidating the Romanization process in the most peripheral provinces, which thus allows the creation of a strong ethnically homogeneous nucleus similar to what happened in the Eastern part, which even in the event of the subsequent fall of the Empire can act as the basis for a China / Persia-like development
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Hey everyone. I'm just letting you know this isn't dead. I've been really busy with school and also just lazy, but I'm back to working on this. Hopefully the next update comes soon. I also had a couple of questions, one for research and one for worldbuilding.
Firstly, does anyone have any information regarding the various Germanic kings of the 5th and 6th centuries? I'm having trouble finding precise information on a lot of them. I guess that's what I get for writing a TL in an era of declining living standards, falling literacy rates, and constant warfare.
Second, with the Roman Empire surviving in the west, what are some of the likely environmental effects? Would deforestation and urbanization cause an ecological crisis at some point? Would continued mining cause more lead pollution? What effects would these have on both Rome and the wider world?
Firstly, does anyone have any information regarding the various Germanic kings of the 5th and 6th centuries? I'm having trouble finding precise information on a lot of them. I guess that's what I get for writing a TL in an era of declining living standards, falling literacy rates, and constant warfare.
Second, with the Roman Empire surviving in the west, what are some of the likely environmental effects? Would deforestation and urbanization cause an ecological crisis at some point? Would continued mining cause more lead pollution? What effects would these have on both Rome and the wider world?
Glad to hear it’s not dead! Was getting worried! Best of luck!
Sadly I don’t have any such information really. I imagine others here have better sources or maybe other history forums and sub reddits. But yeah lol not exactly the most well documented time period lol.
Sadly I don’t have any such information really. I imagine others here have better sources or maybe other history forums and sub reddits. But yeah lol not exactly the most well documented time period lol.
Chapter II: Playing the Game
Chapter II: Playing the Game
Despite Majorian’s astounding victories, the Western Roman Empire was still in rough shape. The economy was in shambles, the military had serious recruitment problems, and there were still semi-independent Germanic kingdoms on Roman soil, even if they had been greatly reduced. But perhaps the most pressing threat to the Roman Empire was generals like Ricimer; Those who would sell out the empire for even miniscule personal gain. The Germanic tribes were becoming restless after Ricimer’s defeat. They feared that they might be next.
Majorian could do little at this point other than slowly rebuild the army and play the petty Germanic kings off each other. While most Germanic soldiers were just as loyal to the empire as native soldiers, Majorian still hoped to re-Romanize the army in order to prevent another Ricimer. Whether these fears of a Germanic fifth column were justified continues to be debated by historians to this day, but the general consensus was that the threat was minimal.
Historians have also debated the reasoning for Ricimer’s betrayal, with many struggling to find a sound logical reason. Wouldn’t it be easier and safer to buddy up with Majorian, and still retain great power as his friend? While in hindsight this would have been the better idea, a number of reasons have been put forward by historians for Ricimer’s betrayal:
- Blind panic. Majorian was solidifying his authority, and had just gone undefeated against pretty much the entire Germanic world and won. Ricimer, who thought he could puppet Majorian, panicked and rebelled.
- Opportunism. By the time Ricimer’s spies found Majorian’s army marching to Ravenna, it had already been split, so Ricimer’s forces outnumbered it. He was unaware of the other half of the army, and he thought he could win.
Regardless of what he should have done, Ricimer’s choice would influence the policies of both the Germanic kings and Roman Emperors for generations to come. Majorian summoned all of the foederati kings to Ravenna in 463 to reaffirm their loyalty to him. Majorian had won, and now he had to rule, which meant playing a delicate game with the Germanic kings. He could crush them again, but he wanted to preserve the resources of the still fragile Roman state.
To that end, he planned to ensure that there would be no more rebellions. He summoned the various barbarian kings to his court. He decided to hold the meeting in Rome, the Eternal City itself, rather than Ravenna, which had been the capital of the Empire for much of the 5th century. By holding court Rome, with its grand, ancient monuments and large population, even despite a century of neglect. He would remind the barbarians of the vast power of the empire. He also made sure to meet each king on a different day to ensure they had less opportunity to conspire.
The following kings showed up to Rome from October 9-20, 463: Gondioc of the Burgundians, Theodoric II of the Visigoths, Remismund of the Suebi, Gibuld of the Alamanni [1], and Childeric of the Franks. Remismund was particularly interesting, as the Suebi were in the midst of a civil war, and Remismund was vying for the throne. He hoped that by going to Rome, he would seem more legitimate.
During these meetings, Majorian assured the kings that he had no intention of forcibly annexing their lands into the empire. In exchange for allowing the Roman Chalcedonian Christians to worship without persecution and the paying of a mild, one time tribute, the barbarian kings would be considered Roman patricians and accordingly given titles. He also made them commanders in the Roman army, at least officially, and would be given salaries. This was presented as a great honor, but in reality Majorian wanted to bind the foederati much closer to the empire. Though Germanic soldiers were typically loyal when integrated into the Roman command structure, their kings were not.
These meetings were generally successful. The Germanic kings were reassured of their autonomy, while Majorian bound them closer to the empire and reaffirmed their loyalty, at least for a while.
How did these new relationships with the barbarians differ from before? Before Majorian, the various barbarian kings were nominally allied and subject to the emperor. However, they had a rather loose relationship with the Roman state, and were often unreliable. By having them swear loyalty and giving them court positions in the empire, Majorian hoped to give them a stake in the empire. These positions gave the kings prestige at home, enhancing their legitimacy. Many have tried to compare this to the feudalism of the later German, Polish, or Russian kingdoms. This, however, is not an apt comparison. The barbarians weren’t bound solely by feudal bonds like in these later medieval kingdoms. The positions given by Majorian weren’t part of a feudal contract. The barbarians were now salaried members of the Roman government apparatus, at least nominally. Many 20th century historians tried to put the empire of late antiquity in a feudal context, but this view is no longer tenable. The Western Roman Empire was still a centralized, bureaucratic state, like the Eastern Empire.
In 466, a child was born. Nobody yet knew it, but this newborn would reshape the history of Western Europe forever. His was a grand destiny. As his parents watched him sleep, they could see him dreaming. Though the child did not know it, he would have another dream. A dream of a grand empire to rival the Roman one. As Clovis, heir to the Frankish kingdom, slept, his father prayed he would be a capable heir. As events would prove, he would be far more than that.
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Hello all. It's finally out. I'm sorry for the somewhat boring chapter; Frankly, I feel like this isn't my best, but I want to get it out. Don't be surprised if I go back in and edit later. I'll try to update more often. In my defense, it's hard to write about boring diplomacy like this, but I promise things will get more interesting soon.
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don't worry, even if it still appears botched, it is actually quite juicy because it allows us to make various hypotheses on the future course of the Germanic populations in the empire, looking at who would benefit most from having closer ties with the imperial administration ( I'm thinking of the Franks in particular ) and those who instead risk being incorporated / assimilated slowly without even realizing it and thus becoming only a footnote in history books ( instead here I am looking at the Burgundians, Visigoths, Saxons, Suebi ( who could be the first to pay the price for this policy, because if Majoran plays his cards well he could exploit the civil war to disperse part of the population ( i.e. the losing faction of the civil war ) throughout the empire so as to assimilate them ) , Alemanni, Swabians ect, who sincerely risk finding themselves between the Roman rock and the Frankish hard place, and I'm not sorry about that 😇😜)
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I have mixed feelings about this youtuber. Many of his videos are informative, but in others he seems to romanticize paganism a bit too much. I just watched his Julian video and for a moment (in part thanks to his voice) I envisioned this la-di-da scenario with sugar-canes and puppies dancing on cotton candy clouds.
Yeah, that's true. But honestly, late antiquity is such an underappreciated area that I appreciate it getting any love.
As long as the WRE has:
1) a united and strong italy free from Barbarians
2) a solid line of supply from Africa also free from Barbarians
3) Solid lines of defense in gaul and the Danube to prevent other barbarians to come in
then they're not truly at threat from their Foederates. Majorian should concentrate on creating a solidly Roman army out of Italy and Africa while using more of the Gallo-Roman aristocrats to create a Rhine defense force than the Franks and Visigoths.
1) a united and strong italy free from Barbarians
2) a solid line of supply from Africa also free from Barbarians
3) Solid lines of defense in gaul and the Danube to prevent other barbarians to come in
then they're not truly at threat from their Foederates. Majorian should concentrate on creating a solidly Roman army out of Italy and Africa while using more of the Gallo-Roman aristocrats to create a Rhine defense force than the Franks and Visigoths.
Maybe if Majorian would ask to help from ERE's Emperor that WRE and his fleet was sent against Vandalian Kingdom. They must defeat the vandalians and reconquer Northern Africa with its the largest city Cartage. After he was made alliance with Franks that they defense northern border from other barbarians break-in. Next steps firstly he was killed Richimer and stabilized monetary and economical policy.
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Clovis took the throne in 466 according to Wikipedia. Aegidius is still in Gaul.
Majorian already reconquered Africa in the prologue.
I don't plan on it, but we'll have to wait and see. Feudalism is also a tough term to define.
Glory glory hallelujah,
Glory glory hallelujah,
Glory glory hallelujah,
The western flame burns on!
Glory glory hallelujah,
Glory glory hallelujah,
The western flame burns on!
hmm, odd, thats the year my wikipedia says he was born, with him ascending to the throne in 481, when Childeric dies.
Doh, I'm stupid. I'll edit that later today. I can't believe I did something that dumb. My fault.
What about the Donatists in North Africa? Given that they were a huge Christian heresy that proved quite popular with parts of the Berber population, if Majorian reaches a more peaceful settlement with them, he could ensure the Christinization of North Africa and perhaps more permanent Romanization of North Africa, since Donatist Berbers would probably be more favorable to a Roman Empire that did not persecute the Donatist faith.
I'll take them into account as well. Frankly, I'm not well versed in early Christian heresies.
certainly the Donatists are a very important faction for the control of North Africa ( it has a strong Punic-Berber origin matrix ), but considering that in Otl Saint Augustine had started a vigorous campaign to bring them back into communion with the church ( receiving important successes ) well before becoming bishop ( he became one in 396 ) and that the Donatists had sided with the Vandals against the "Catholic" Christians faithful to Rome, I don't think they would be well seen by Majoran's central government, therefore certainly the Emperor will have to come to terms with them, but will certainly continue to support any political project that sees as its main aim their reassimilation into the "state church" in the long term, the settlement campaigns of the defeated barbarian peoples ( or feoderate peoples ) could come to his aid to reduce their presence in the region so as to facilitate the task