The Great War at Sea ... Take 13

Never knew about the Engineering issues or Beatty interference in 1925.
You learn something new everyday on this site
My opinion on B.goes down even more
( Not that I have a high opinion of his command ability in the first place)
Anyone who thought his ships where like hounds in one of his fox hunts has no place in command in the RN
... whether it was directly his doing, is vague at best. For me it's more that it took place on his watch, and might have been handled better. The thing is that the RN was going through some huge cuts at that time, and those in power did what they thought was best. I guess it might have been better in my humble opinion if there was a bit more of a long term look at the results of their chices, rather than just taking a short term fix.

oh yes, did you get off at the right station today?
 
... whether it was directly his doing, is vague at best. For me it's more that it took place on his watch, and might have been handled better. The thing is that the RN was going through some huge cuts at that time, and those in power did what they thought was best. I guess it might have been better in my humble opinion if there was a bit more of a long term look at the results of their chices, rather than just taking a short term fix.

oh yes, did you get off at the right station today?
Fair comments my view on Beatty leaves me quite biased.
Didn't missed the station - however did miss the train - while catching up on your updates ☺
 
What happened to Beatty's wife and children (including the bastard Peter who was born out of an affair) in this one given Ethel's disposition.
 
I was under the impression that the RN stuck with the tried and tested medium pressure plants due to the fact they were tough and easy to repair with the facilities throughout the empire, which a efficient but highly stressed high pressure plant might not be. Also the UKs industry wasn't really up to making the high pressure engines, certainly from what I recall the steam piping on the high pressure plants was prone to leaks, also the RN would not pay for the water additives needed to keep the boilers clean.

Admiralty three drum boilers were tough reliable units, and actually quite economical at high speeds.

Good update, however I cant see the RN decommissioning 12" battleships while the country is still at war, certainly channel fleet predreds would go first to be replaced by the 12" dreadnoughts.
 
What happened to Beatty's wife and children (including the bastard Peter who was born out of an affair) in this one given Ethel's disposition.

Ethel and her children will carry on swimmingly, I'm sure. Whatever they may find for adventures in life will be beyond the scope of my diatribe,as with Beatty's early loss, while he will be remembered as somewhat of a character to be sure, there's really no place for his further influence on the course of things. RIP
 
I was under the impression that the RN stuck with the tried and tested medium pressure plants due to the fact they were tough and easy to repair with the facilities throughout the empire, which a efficient but highly stressed high pressure plant might not be. Also the UKs industry wasn't really up to making the high pressure engines, certainly from what I recall the steam piping on the high pressure plants was prone to leaks, also the RN would not pay for the water additives needed to keep the boilers clean.

Admiralty three drum boilers were tough reliable units, and actually quite economical at high speeds.

---vvv---

That the tried and true types did have there advantages, despite the other advantages of their high pressure alternatives is well known. While the technical complexities of the High Pressure units are a concern, they could be overcome if need be. The main advantage of these newer designs will continue to be in economy, weight and space savings in both rebuilds and new designs. The main concern against them will indeed be the maybe unneeded extra efforts required to bring such units up to a proper operational standard, while at the same time staying proficient with the old designs, which as well will be further upgraded as they go.

One of the interesting spin offs of staying with the proven 3 drum design is that, as historical, it would help provide for a quicker catalyst in the development of new technoligies for motive power in the RN.

---vvv---

Good update, however I cant see the RN decommissioning 12" battleships while the country is still at war, certainly channel fleet predreds would go first to be replaced by the 12" dreadnoughts.

---vvv---

The issue of taking the 12" dreads out of commission relates to various factors, including manning, their general usefulness and budgetary needs as well. As well, they are geting long in the tooth when it comes to age, and very dangerous to their crews with their lack of proper underwater protection. They will be held initially at a reserve status, but at this point, they are really of little use, other than maybe a Mediterranean presence, but even that is not needed at this point.

The main point of understanding at this point is simply that other than 5 German dreadnoughts, along with a few cruisers and torpedo boats, there is no real foreseeable threat that the navy might face at this point that would require their presence. That the German threat can be better contained by new patterns of patrol, backed by an ample number of newer British dreadnoughts, there's so real reason to keep them going, and by their eventual full decommissioning, their crews will be freed up for other duties.

As to the pre-dreads, they are being wound down as well, there's really nothing left for them to do in many cases, and as well, due to their age, their collective cost of upkeep just to keep them at a rudimentary level of activity is expensive. Historically, the bullet of those costs was well bitten, simply due to the threat of the High Seas Fleet, and other commitments on the channel and in the Mediterranean. These threats do not exist here that would demand their active presence in this TL.

The fiscal realities that face Great Britain at this point are very large, and any way of finding economies will be sought out, with every penny saved meaning less interest on the already burgeoning debt load of the nation.

While the damaged units will be stripped of everything usable in a reasonably swift manner, as any of their salvaged equipment will be of better use, The pre-dreadnoughts will be dealt with first, starting with the oldest. It will be some time before the time will come for the three remaining 12" dreadnoughts to be scrapped, as a result.

Thanks for your comments, they are appreciated!
 
Well reasoned arguments on both points.

1. 12" Battleships. I can see your point for saving money but the ships are still less than 10 years old even if they are verging on obselecent. My thoughts are that you still need a robust tripwire in the channel that can be relied upon to repond when called for. You dont want to be using new ships in such close water's. Even if they spend the rest of the war babysitting convoys across the channel they are providing a fine service.

There has to be some heavy units in the channel to provide a blocking force incase the remaining German units sneak past the standing patrols. It may never be needed but it does have to be there.

2. High pressure boilers. Carrying out the high temp testing trials in a consistent manner will hopefully persuade the more conservative members of the RN, this was an issue in the orginal trials with HMS Ambuscade.

The bigger issues will be that there isnt the industrial base in the uk to build these kinds of boilers or the desire, cerntainly not for merchantile use. If you can find a way for some of the better builders to offer high temp/pressure to commercal users then the drivers to switch from medium pressure units will gather pace, this may also help the take up of boiler water additives to increase the time before boiler cleaning is needed, traditionally the RN refused to pay for the use of the US developed addative.

Maybe using the high pressure technology in civilian power generation between the wars will provide some impetus to switch. Maybe a company like English Electric could try to supply Warship equipment built on license from the US, this would force the industry to modernise.

A two tier system with frigates, sloops, corvettes and minesweepers using the older medium pressure systems with boiler addatives.

Obviously this is just idle speculation, I'll enjoy the story whichever direction you take it.
 
hello again, Brazen!
Apparently there were a certain level of design transfer between the US and British manufacturing concerns, as well as certain revelations in trade publications and engineering theory.

I agree with you on the ability to provide such units on an economical scale might well be a challenge, however there might be some sort of access to licencing agreements with US concerns as well. This might well be an option on a somewhat limited scale in certain circumstances.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!
 
Very good reasoning with the RN's 12-inch gunned ships, perhaps offer the 12, 9.2, 6 and 4-inch guns that have become available to the army?
 
Very good reasoning with the RN's 12-inch gunned ships, perhaps offer the 12, 9.2, 6 and 4-inch guns that have become available to the army?

I wonder what happened OTL to the guns of scrapped warships, some may be saved for potential re-use, some may be worn out - of no use to anyone, yet others of various calibres could be of use - some may be used by the British in various fortifications, but there must have been still many left over. What others countries took advantage, or was there just too much surplus land artillery available?
 
Most were scrapped, that kind of metal is real high quality stuff and it was just cut up and melted down. Some places got guns but most were slagged.
 
I wonder what happened OTL to the guns of scrapped warships, some may be saved for potential re-use, some may be worn out - of no use to anyone, yet others of various calibres could be of use - some may be used by the British in various fortifications, but there must have been still many left over. What others countries took advantage, or was there just too much surplus land artillery available?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-28

Just saying like....
 
Most were scrapped, that kind of metal is real high quality stuff and it was just cut up and melted down. Some places got guns but most were slagged.

There is an interesting aspect to the scrapping of excess guns in that while they could be sold to other nations, in doing so one might be facing those guns in the future. There were a limited number of nations that had the capability to build both guns and armoured plate ... one might want to consider just who might get a hold of such items .... not of real interest, just a point to ponder ...
 
Will the British try to retake Heligoland after the war?

Oh Man!!!

Those Heligoland stories! They are the best!

It would be interesting to roll something in here on that, however due to the vastly different ending that is approaching, I'm not sure just how or if it might be possible. I have considered it, but with all the changes that have and will take place, I have to do some research on it. There were a couple of things with it that might be able to assist, one being the original exchanges whereby Britain parted with them for territorial concerns in Africa, if I remember rightly.

The other one was presented in the Heligoland stories regarding a referendum by its residents. I can't remember the author, or if it was on this site or the one tied into navweaps ...I'll have to do some research on that.

Thanks for the reminder!
 
Sorry for not getting a post up today, however I hit a snag , and had to do a major rework on the last post I made. I'll get things sorted out and reposted tomorrow (16 hours or there abouts)

sorry for the delay
 
Well lets assume that France collapses due to internal pressure and dissatissfaction with the Government and breaks out the red flag. Who ever takes over then makes peace with Germany and the Germans basically have their war aims then. The sudden threat of the German troops in France/Belgium heading east or a great eastern offensive makes the Russians go "Okay, we're out. So wanna talk?" Whilst the UK realising that the War was decided by the French collapse also decides to sit down and talk with this happening some time in 1917.

With the war spluttering to an end as revolution wracks France I can kind of imagine a possibly british 'intervention' attempt were France to try and grab Belgium or Holland.

This could keep the US out of the War and they remain fairly isolationist and if Germany goes "So Japan can we have our Far Eastern possessions back?" The reply would be a loud "HAH! No!" And whilst the US and Japan eye one another warily, the UK keeps a very worried eye on whats happening in France. Germany tries to recover as whilst it 'won' the cost of doing so will be ruinously high. the Kaiser abdicates and puts his son forwards as a replacement as he gets blamed for the war whilst the British Monarchy has no such wobbles and is as popular now as it has ever been since the height of the Victorian era.

It might be possible that the UK and Japan remain friendly and keep their alliance going but its more trade than military whilst Japan eyes French Indo China with a calculating gaze.
 
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