Robert Falcon Scott survives returning from the South Pole

More modern works on the weather patterns of the time and the book by Fiennes - the only author who understands the realities of polar life - show that Scott wasn't as incompetent as made out, and that it WAS the weather that largely done him in.
Except when making such plans, the worst possible situation must be taken into account. Easy to say he expected fair weather but bad luck didn't give it to him but did he make any provision for the weather betraying his party?

When one lays the Norwegian method alongside the British how can one not come away with the belief Scott was an amateurish bungler if the goal was to succeed and make it home to tell the tale? (and yes, had Scott lived to tell the tale, the RGS would have used every dirty trick up its sleeve to get world to go along with their saying Amundsen did not deserve the prize not because he didn't get there first but because he was a scoundrel)
 
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(and yes, had Scott lived to tell the tale, the RGS would have used every dirty trick up its sleeve to get world to go along with their saying Amundsen did not deserve the prize)
Some evidence for this would be appreciated.

It's easy to claim the RGS would be much more biased than OTL, but it's not clear what would inspire them to do it here if we don't even have Scott claiming Amundsen wasn't first.

Less admirable in other ways if he's really bitter enough, but the prize wasn't "most gentlemanly" or "ate the fewest dogs".
 
(and yes, had Scott lived to tell the tale, the RGS would have used every dirty trick up its sleeve to get world to go along with their saying Amundsen did not deserve the prize not because he didn't get there first but because he was a scoundrel)
They didn't do that IOTL and Scott living to tell the tale gives them even less incentive, in this time period and society the story of a tragic fallen hero who died battling the elements is far more marketable and compelling than quibbling over who exactly deserves a nonexistent prize for being first to the pole. The world already recognized Amundsen's achievement, the most the Society can do is say "well Scott's priority was science anyways so he's still a winner in our hearts", but it's not an Olympic committee handing out trophies or anything.
 
I am still holding that the RGS (like Britain itself) would have lionized an alive Scott far above the level they did after his death and believe that knowing how much Scott sought the glory of the prize that he himself would have joined the chorus condemning Amundsen for what the RGS would undoubtedly claim to be underhanded tactics to get to the pole such as deceiving the Norwegian government and Fridtjof Nansen before departing.

The RGS would not deny Amundsen got to the pole first but that he did it with dishonorable means in order to get Scott all the world's attention and praise and to get Amundsen condemned as a lying cheat who ate his dogs.
 
Steel, you keep on throwing insults at people without providing a single shred of evidence that you, sitting here in 2024, are right and those who have deeply researched the issues and (in Fiennes' case) actually done Polar exploration are wrong.

As one scientific paper notes "The data recorded by Scott and his men from late February to March 19, 1912, display daily temperature minima that were on average 10 to 20°F below those obtained in the same region and season since routine modern observations began in 1985. .......These remarkably cold temperatures likely contributed substantially to the exhaustion and frostbite Scott and his companions endured, and their deaths were therefore due, at least in part, to the unusual weather conditions they endured during their cold march across the Ross Ice Shelf of Antarctica."

To quote one website, CoolAntarctica, "Unfortunately some have taken Scott's failure to indicate that he was clueless from start to finish and he is sometimes spoken or written about in quite undeserved derogatory terms, especially by inexperienced "armchair explorers".

You have provided not a single piece of evidence to butress your claim that there would have been some fraudulent movement against Amundsen.
Why should any reasonable person believe your claims when you have provided absolutely no evidence for any of them?

In another thread you claimed that the US armed forces were wrong and they should have sent a troop convoy to be wrecked upon coral reefs in an impassable part of the sea. It appears that your criticisms of others may not be based upon geographical reality.

Would you like to be insulted as you insult others without a single piece of evidence to back up the abuse? If you wouldn't like to cop it why should you deal it?
 
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Except when making such plans, the worst possible situation must be taken into account. Easy to say he expected fair weather but bad luck didn't give it to him but did he make any provision for the weather betraying his party?

When one lays the Norwegian method alongside the British how can one not come away with the belief Scott was an amateurish bungler if the goal was to succeed and make it home to tell the tale? (and yes, had Scott lived to tell the tale, the RGS would have used every dirty trick up its sleeve to get world to go along with their saying Amundsen did not deserve the prize not because he didn't get there first but because he was a scoundrel)

Sorry, but that's wrong. Every piece of ground-breaking exploration at the time was subject to failure when the conditions were bad enough. Have you ever actually gone to sea in a small boat, climbed a major mountain or done anything similar yourself? Before modern technology (and even sometimes now) it was a fact that conditions sometimes become too extreme for even the best expeditions.

The success rate of expeditions into many regions was very low, the death rate very high. Unless we are going to be very arrogant we have to assume that shows that the feats they were attempting were very difficult.

Even an inference that Scott should have known what the weather could be like is illogical - no one had been to the South Pole and few people had been to Antarctica. How on earth do you think people a century ago should have known about the possible weather extremes in a place no one had ever been?

Scott's methods were not the equal of Amundsen's but they were partly a product of the successful series of RN polar expeditions that had lead to many "firsts". The fact that he was not the best does not mean that he was a bungler.

And sorry, but producing insults but no evidence is just illogical, especially when your claim means that we have to accept that Scott AND Fiennes were incompetent or dishonest or both. Why should we abuse people just because someone on the net says we should but provides no evidence whatsoever?

Even Amundsen died in the polar regions - by your standards surely he must therefore also count as a "bungler", unable to reach your superhuman standards.
 
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I am still holding that the RGS (like Britain itself) would have lionized an alive Scott far above the level they did after his death and believe that knowing how much Scott sought the glory of the prize that he himself would have joined the chorus condemning Amundsen for what the RGS would undoubtedly claim to be underhanded tactics to get to the pole such as deceiving the Norwegian government and Fridtjof Nansen before departing.

The RGS would not deny Amundsen got to the pole first but that he did it with dishonorable means in order to get Scott all the world's attention and praise and to get Amundsen condemned as a lying cheat who ate his dogs.
THESE are the criteria you propose the RGS puts forward for disqualifying Amundsen?

Lol.

If they do this, the RGS is going to become nothing less than a worldwide laughingstock.
 
One interesting point is that one journal noted the new knowledge that the Antarctic had three major mountain ranges (up till then unknown, which shows how much of a step in the dark the expeditions were) and that the western side of each seems to have had much better weather. There were four expeditions around then, two of which camped on the eastern side of the mountains (Scott and Nordenskjold) and two on the western (Charcot and Amundsen). The Bulletin of the American Geographical Society reported that "Nordenskj6ld and Scott had frightful weather: Charcot and Amundsen had relatively good weather....." says the Bulletin of the American Geographical Society which has no reason to be biased towards the Brit. "Scott evidently met extremely bad weather, heavy storms, blizzards, great cold, and Nordenskjold had exactly the same experience. Amundsen, whilst noting some very low temperatures during the winter, speaks of but little snow and only two moderate storms, and this is much like what Charcot recorded".

Across most of the polar seas the prevailing winds blow from the east. Further to the poles they come from the east and therefore Scott and Nordenskjold would have been on the windward slope, but one wonders whether anyone knew that at the time.

One significant factor is that the quoted report was based on information BEFORE Scott was lost, so it's obvious that no-one created a false story of bad weather after the failure. The fact that Scott (and Nordenskjold) had far worse weather than Amundsen was already a known before he died.
 
I am still holding that the RGS (like Britain itself) would have lionized an alive Scott far above the level they did after his death and believe that knowing how much Scott sought the glory of the prize that he himself would have joined the chorus condemning Amundsen for what the RGS would undoubtedly claim to be underhanded tactics to get to the pole such as deceiving the Norwegian government and Fridtjof Nansen before departing.

The RGS would not deny Amundsen got to the pole first but that he did it with dishonorable means in order to get Scott all the world's attention and praise and to get Amundsen condemned as a lying cheat who ate his dogs.
I'm getting the feeling you aren't really interested in a discussion nor do I think you really understand how the Royal Geographical Society functioned or what high society in general was like back then. If none of them were interested in such intense mudslinging IOTL there's no reason to think they'd suddenly be down for it just because Scott survives ITTL. As I said, they'll have even less reason because there was more honor and sympathy attached to being some sort of martyr than there was towards being "the guy who reached the pole second". For that matter, engaging in such a public attempt at demonization goes against the purpose and principles of the Society, which was formed as a fellowship of scientists and not a bunch of petty politicicking egomaniacs. And like their foreign counterparts they were plenty capable of acknowledging the achievements of foreign scientists and explorers, like the aforementioned Nansen who would doubtlessly support Amundsen if they went after him so viciously as would the British explorers.
 
Fine...I know when the numbers are against me and cease pushing my contention regarding the RGS and it's reaction if Scott lives.

So the original questions remain...is it likely Scott, Wilson and Bowers make it to One Ton Depot if Oates returns early with the last support party (everything else per the original timeline)? How does the RGS react with a live Scott instead of him dead and how does the remainder of Scott's life play out?
 
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Also let's be clear on one thing...the Norwegians had vastly greater experience with polar travel and were much more attuned to the best and most efficient means to successfully achieve it.

It might be worthy of debate here but the British appear to having been loathe to acknowledge the Norwegian's greater experience and that the methods they used were tested and proven in the high arctic and in Greenland. One just need look at how Scott rejected Nansen's advice to rely exclusively on dogs when Nansen had more polar experience than all others on earth combined! Scott refused to study ALL known and proven means to successfully travel in polar climates and insisted on doing things the British method which didn't adopt much of anything from the Inuit. His attempt to reach the pole and then return from it relying on the British way was obviously fatally flawed because his party died utterly exhausted, starved, frostbitten, ridden by scurvy and all the time manhauling a sledge carrying rocks. The other side has competent leadership using proven methods to travel in such a forbidding environment. Nobody suffers such debilitation nor dies and the entire feat really appears to be amazingly easy. So you can go ahead and shyte on me all you want, but I am firmly in the Huntford camp when it comes to judging Scott and if anybody wants to go toe to toe with me here regarding the man and how he planned, organized and lead his FAILED polar expedition then I say let's dance.
 
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Well it is certainly refreshing to find out that there are no sycophant Scott supporters on here who believe the only reason he failed and so many men died was because of bad weather and Cecil Meares
 
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Also let's be clear on one thing...the Norwegians had vastly greater experience with polar travel and were much more attuned to the best and most efficient means to successfully achieve it.

It might be worthy of debate here but the British appear to having been loathe to acknowledge the Norwegian's greater experience and that the methods they used were tested and proven in the high arctic and in Greenland. One just need look at how Scott rejected Nansen's advice to rely exclusively on dogs when Nansen had more polar experience than all others on earth combined! Scott refused to study ALL known and proven means to successfully travel in polar climates and insisted on doing things the British method which didn't adopt much of anything from the Inuit. His attempt to reach the pole and then return from it relying on the British way was obviously fatally flawed because his party died utterly exhausted, starved, frostbitten, ridden by scurvy and all the time manhauling a sledge carrying rocks. The other side has competent leadership using proven methods to travel in such a forbidding environment. Nobody suffers such debilitation nor dies and the entire feat really appears to be amazingly easy. So you can go ahead and shyte on me all you want, but I am firmly in the Huntford camp when it comes to judging Scott and if anybody wants to go toe to toe with me here regarding the man and how he planned, organized and lead his FAILED polar expedition then I say let's dance.

Well it is certainly refreshing to find out that there are no sycophant Scott supporters on here who believe the only reason he failed and so many men died was because of bad weather and Cecil Meares

We can't be clear on things that are factually incorrect.

It's not refreshing to find that there are people here who throw insults but have at no stage presented anything like a shred of evidence. I assume that is because you have nothing but insults for other people.

1- The Norwegians did not have "vastly greater experience with polar travel". The Royal Navy had enormous experience in polar travel; in fact in the early 1600s the Norwegian king had employed a British leader for three of the Norwegian arctic expeditions. The first specific Royal Navy polar expedition was in 1774 and it set a new record for getting northward. That record was broken by another RN expedition, led by Parry, who set a record that held for almost 50 years until being broken by yet another Royal Navy expedition, led by Markham and Nares.

The facts are that the RN were NOT greatly inexperienced than the Norwegians. Don't make claims that are untrue and then whine and insult those who do not accept untruths.

2- Scott did study all means of travel in polar climates and had used dogs in his earlier expedition. He was inexperienced with them and felt that they may not be able to haul sleds up the glacier from the site he had chosen to allow geographical studies. Yes, his decisions were not ideal in the light of later experience but that's easy to say in 2024.

3- Funny how when people use old methods they are often criticised as being old fashioned and when they try new methods (motor sledges) they are still often criticised.

4- Criticisms must be seen in the light of the very high failure and death rate of other expeditions. Larsen, a very experienced Norwagian, lost his ship in the Arctic. The US Polaris expedition lost its ship and if not for the Unuit, would probably have lost all its men. The US Jeanette expedition lost its ship and 20 men. The US Greely expedition lost 18 of 25 men.

Scott himself had already set a record (furthest south) on his first expedition. His second expedition also did very well in terms of science. It is ridiculous to pillory him as being a bad explorer when he achieved more than so many at much less cost.

Try using facts rather than insults and you may learn why the USN didn't do (as you advised) send invasion convoys to run aground on coral reefs, and what the real facts of polar expeditions are.
 
2- Scott did study all means of travel in polar climates and had used dogs in his earlier expedition. He was inexperienced with them and felt that they may not be able to haul sleds up the glacier from the site he had chosen to allow geographical studies. Yes, his decisions were not ideal in the light of later experience but that's easy to say in 2024.

I suppose the best way to ask my question here: What would you recommend reading to learn more about this?

Scott's decisions in general really - my sense coming into this thread is that Scott made some decisions that may or may not have been the best decisions even at the time, but he had enough experience that I assumed more "miscalculated" for a lot of this.
 
I'm no expert and all my books on the subject have been stored for years in a different city. I can't recall all I've got or read. However, Fergus Fleming's "Barrow's Boys" gives a good and apparently fair account of the RN's experience in earlier polar explorations and his "Ninety Degrees North" gives harrowing accounts of the failures of many expeditions and Nansen's success - which was itself blessed by some remarkable luck, like Nansen turning back after his failure to reach the Pole with one other man and two kayaks and then months amazingly later finding a British expedition on remote Franz Josef Land. Even Nansen managed to have to swim after his kayaks in the arctic ocean after failing to moor them properly, and left his compass hours behind but managed to find it on the ice cap.

It's not as if the Norwegians did everything right themselves. Amundsen was great but his 1925 expedition failed and his 1928 one led to his death.

Huntford's character assassination seemed harsh but reasonable to me until I came across the misleading way he paints Katherine Scott, and then I dived further and saw how he attacks Scott in ways that other authors have largely misproven. "Shackleton's Boat Voyage" (IIRC) and Cherry Asprey-Gazzard (sp) in "The Worst Journey in the World" give accounts of how hard conditions were, how little was known and how poor the gear was in general. I haven't read Susan Solomon's book, which says that Scott had record bad weather, but it's well reviewed and she is a leading scientist, has Antarctic experience, and is from the USA so has no nationalistic drum to beat unlike Fiennes.

One thing that Fergus' "Ninety Degrees North" shows very early on, in its list of expeditions, is the very high rate of failure and death. I haven't done the stats but looking at them, it seems that Scott had an unusually good record of achievement (a record for furthest south in his first trip and very good scientific work and actually reaching the Pole on his second) at comparatively low cost in lives. Some people seem to think that failure was unusual - it was actually the norm for the era and place.
 
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Scott did study all means of travel in polar climates and had used dogs in his earlier expedition. He was inexperienced with them...
Of course he studied all means...I completely forgot that Captain Scott spent time with and studying the Inuit and chose to emulate their methods of travelling across ice using man hauling while wearing canvas clothing?

Being one inexperienced with dogs doesn't give him a pass for not making them the primary means of travelling on ice. Sure he took a handful of them but Nansen had advised him to use only dogs however Scott knew better than the man who had crossed Greenland and survived being stranded in the high Arctic without any support parties or catched depots to make it out alive. That alone should have been enough to adopt using dogs as religion just as Amundsen did. Late in the game Scott realized dogs were is only hope to make it home which led to the whole muddle of not risking them which itself was another of Scott's critical failures. He should have clearly sent back instructions to turn them around after returning to hut point to meet his party at least at 82d30m south to ensure his party made it. Instead it was ambiguous statements about it not being a rescue thus not critical to his survival.
 
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I suppose the best way to ask my question here: What would you recommend reading to learn more about this?

Scott's decisions in general really - my sense coming into this thread is that Scott made some decisions that may or may not have been the best decisions even at the time, but he had enough experience that I assumed more "miscalculated" for a lot of this.
Yeah broadly he made some mistakes and sadly paid for them but it was at the bleeding edge of what was possible at the time and things happen.

If he'd got back there would probably be some recriminations and a few "You bast**d," comments about Amundsen turning around and going south but just as usually happened in exploration circles it would be ; well the best man won, they all bought back lots of data and thank God almost everyone made it home.

About the only thing that might be a little different is Shackleton's expedition (Scott and Shackleton hated each other and Robert will probably put the boot in, but as a "failure" he probably won't be able to do anything to stop it). Although you might see Scott realise he would have had a free run if Peary hadn't claimed to reach the North first and put some early effort into discrediting him...
 
Of course he studied all means...I completely forgot that Captain Scott spent time with and studying the Inuit and chose to emulate their methods of travelling across ice using man hauling while wearing canvas clothing?

Being one inexperienced with dogs doesn't give him a pass for not making them the primary means of travelling on ice. Sure he took a handful of them but Nansen had advised him to use only dogs however Scott knew better than the man who had crossed Greenland and survived being stranded in the high Arctic without any support parties or catched depots to make it out alive. That alone should have been enough to adopt using dogs as religion just as Amundsen did. Late in the game Scott realized dogs were is only hope to make it home which led to the whole muddle of not risking them which itself was another of Scott's critical failures. He should have clearly sent back instructions to turn them around after returning to hut point to meet his party at least at 82d30m south to ensure his party made it. Instead it was ambiguous statements about it not being a rescue thus not critical to his survival.

Your argument is contradictory in more than one way, often simply untrue, and seems to be born from some sort of strong personal or nationalistic bias.

For example, you are either almost entirely lacking in knowledge or lying when you claim "Nansen had more polar experience than all others on earth combined". That is simply not true. There were over ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY polar expeditions BEFORE Nansen's first one. Some expeditions included over 120 men who experienced at least one winter in the Arctic. Even if the average expedition just 30 men and stayed there for six months there would have been the equivalent of 1800 years of polar experience in the earlier expeditions. Nansen, an outstanding man and brilliant explorer, had four or five years experience.

It's hard to take an argument seriously when it includes claims that are out by a factor of about 360! How on earth could anyone have come up with such an absurd claim?

The other incorrect claims in your posts include the following;

1- "the British appear to having been loathe to acknowledge the Norwegian's greater experience and that the methods they used were tested and proven in the high arctic and in Greenland."

The point you appear to be trying to make is incorrect. The British had greater experience in high polar travel than the Norwegians, as noted earlier. The British had repeatedly taken the record for getting close to both poles, which proved that their methods also worked.

Secondly, Scott planned to use dogs from the start. He changed his ideas after actual experience in the Antarctic, which is not the Arctic.

2 - The closest man had ever got to a pole at the time was by man and pony, in Shackleton's expedition. So why on earth should Scott have discarded the lessons of a man who went closer to the pole, and to the same pole Scott was aiming for, and instead followed a man who did not get as close to a pole and never experienced the mountain ranges of the Antarctic?

3 - You claim that Scott should have followed the advice of Nansen - when as you said yourself, Nansen was stranded in the high Arctic. The fact that the redoubtable Nansen could get stranded shows how thin the margin between success and failure often was. So, too, was the fact that Amundsen's own success was followed by two failed expeditions, one of which cost him his life.

4- To say that Nansen survived "without any support parties or cached depots" is rather weird when Nansen's survival was arguably because by an incredible stroke of luck he happened to run into a British survey party on the desolate wastes of Franz Joseph Island. Had Nansen not had that bizarre stroke of fortune he was facing an open sea crossing of 150 miles in the Arctic in kayaks.

4- You claimed that Scott didn't study different methods of polar travel. That is simply untrue. He studied dogs, horses, skiing, walking, motor sleds, etc. Clothing is NOT travel.

5 - you repeatedly claim that people should have followed the travelling style of earlier pioneers like Nansen - but Nansen did not do that himself. The design of Fram (to quote from Nansen's own book) "differ(s) essentially from any other previously known vessel...." As noted,

You are saying that Scott should have copied Nansen but also saying that Scott should not have followed Nansen's example of being innovative.

6- Nansen's own Greenland expedition used man-hauled sledges like Scott did. So apparently it's a great idea when Nansen does it and a dumb idea when Scott does it.

7- The Arctic is not the Antarctic. One is all sea ice about three metres thick or less, the other has mountain ranges, glaciers and deep crevasses. Why assume that one is like the other as you apparently do?

The danger of crevasses is one reason why Scott changed his plan and used the dogs as a vital LATER part in his plan. In the first trek, he noted how hard it was to get dogs out when they fall into crevasses. Ponies and men were less of a problem. Crevasses were not a problem in the Arctic because they don't exist in the same way on sea ice.

Not even Nansen knew how dogs would handle the flat Arctic (from his own words "I do not of course know what the staying powers of the dogs may be") but now you are saying that Scott should have known what the staying power of dogs in a DIFFERENT environment, on land not sea, on slopes not flats, and with crevasses not shallow drops, should be. That is just not logical.

9 - since you put yourself in the Huntford camp it may seem that you are happy with believing a man who is obviously biased, as in his passages about Scott's career and Katherine Scott. But closely on point is the fact that Huntford claimed that Scott's reaction to animal suffering was "mawkishly sentimental".

So if Scott can be criticised for "mawkish sentimentality", why not also throw the same abuse at Nansen, who wrote of the way the dogs were treated with phrases like this; "undeniable cruelty to the poor animals .....one must often look back on it with horror. It makes me shudder even now .......It made one’s heart bleed …those splendid animals, toiling for us without a murmur, as long as they could strain a muscle, never getting any thanks or even so much as a kind word, daily writhing under the lash until the time came when they could do no more and death freed them from their pangs—when I think of how they were left behind, one by one, up there on those desolate ice-fields, which had been witness to their faithfulness and devotion, I have moments of bitter self-reproach."

It's hypocritical (and callous) of Huntford to criticise Scott for being "mawkishly sentimental" when Nansen and Johansen were just as sentimental.....they just weren't the Huntford's target. That is typical of Huntford and it's a damn good reason for staying "out of his camp".

10 - Finally, it's extremely odd that you can blame Scott for not slavishly following the ideas of a successful man in the field (Nansen) when you have yourself criticised the choices of so many leading men in so many other fields on this forum, including saying they should have done things as odd as send an entire invasion convoy to get stuck on coral reefs.

Why should Scott have just followed the established leaders when you don't?
 
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