Robert Falcon Scott survives returning from the South Pole

Huntford overstated how much bungling he did, and that has become more evident with things we have learned in recent years (such as the discovery of Scott's written order to Meares). I do think that despite the bungling, Scott *could* have made it back if the weather had not been so bad, which at least attests to some level of competency. Which is what I think Susan Solomon was trying to argue, even if she went too far in the other direction.

The problem with Scott, I suspect, is not that he was an idiot, or even malicious (though he could certainly nurse a grudge, which he unfortunately did against Shackleton), but that he was in certain respects, not very well suited to be an exploration leader, or come to that, a front line naval captain. His gifts - and he did have real gifts - lay elsewhere. He actually did a very smart job of organizing the scientific side of the expedition, which certainly brought back far, far more useful science than Amundsen did. But he kind of got channeled into exploration as his means of advancement within the Royal Navy. As David Crane put it, “In any sensible society, a child of Scott’s type would have ended up as an engineer or scientist, but for a boy of his class in Victorian England the future was circumscribed by the deadening monopoly of the old professions.”

As to what you say about dealing with (and being prepared for) the unexpected, this is of course where Shackleton shines over Scott. Shackleton started out with all the same expectations and prejudices that Scott did, but he learned from their deficiencies, and he was eminently able to adapt. Both of his Antarctic expeditions ran into unexpected Bad Things and yet he managed against all odds to overcome them, and come back alive with all his men. And of course, he was simply better in leading men (and choosing ones who were leadable).

Well said.

I certainly agree that Scott was far from a perfect leader and explorer. My issue is with people who rely on false statements and contradictory positions (ie that Scott was a failure because he died after reaching the pole while Amundsen is a success despite the total failure of his last two expeditions) to abuse him.
 
Amundsen is a success despite the total failure of his last two expeditions

Oh, I think we have to count the Norge flight as his last expedition. (Successful enough that it is what establishes his claim to be the first man to *both* poles!)

I cut Amundsen slack on his 1918-25 expeditions because he was attempting, literally, the impossible, given the state of technology and climate of the time. But I take your points about Scott, of course.
 
I cut Amundsen slack on his 1918-25 expeditions because he was attempting, literally, the impossible
I have often wondered why Amundsen used the route he did with the MAUD expedition? Wasn't his original plan in 1911 when he had the FRAM to enter the pack via the Bering Strait?
 
Because of this thread I have been rereading much of the scholarship on the issue of what Scott had wanted to be done as far as relief parties meeting him on the barrier are concerned. There are questions about whether Cecil Meares was given a clear order to take dog food to One Ton Depot in January so that dog teams could meet his party returning from the pole. Karen May who is clearly a Scott apologist says there was however I have not seen any specific orders in writing from Scott plus he did not record in his diary that he had given such orders nor did he appear to have asked for others in the party on the glacier to stand as witness to such orders. With Meares being on less than friendly terms with Scott at the time of departure one would want to think Scott would have not only have recorded himself making such orders in his journal and ensured as many people present aware of them to put Meares in a box so to speak?

It is quite possible that Meares was told to take dog food to One Ton Depot after his return from the glacier but did Scott give him the ability to choose to not carry out those orders and should that be the case...one might well blame Scott equally to Meares?

One thing of note is that Meares (even though at the moment he returned to Cape Evans, he did not know exactly if Lawrence Oates was or wasn't in the pole party) would not want the pole party to perish because Oates might well be in it and I think he expected him to be in it? It is reported he was good friends with Oates so deliberately disobeying such orders would put his friend at risk of dying? Karen May wants us to believe Meares was a self serving blackguard who only cared about getting on the TERRA NOVA and away from the whole thing....however?

What do others here believe?
 
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Karen May who is clearly a Scott apologist says there was however I have not seen the specific orders in writing from Scott plus he did not record in his diary that he had given such orders nor did he appear to have asked for others in the parties on the glacier to stand as witness to such orders.

Is it your sense that Karen May fabricated the order to Meares?
 
I have often wondered why Amundsen used the route he did with the MAUD expedition? Wasn't his original plan in 1911 when he had the FRAM to enter the pack via the Bering Strait?

It was during the Great War. U-boats were operating in the Atlantic, but not in the Barents Sea. It seems he wanted to steer as far clear of the war zone as he could manage.
 
Is it your sense that Karen May fabricated the order to Meares?
No but where are these orders? I've searched online and I don't come up with anything specific. Where was it discovered and is it direct from Scott or third party? I have also read a paper by Bill Alp refuting May's claims which itself is very convincing however May's paper is buried behind a paywall and any articles concerning her paper include nothing specific just assertions concerning Meares. If there is incontrovertible evidence that Meares did what May claims then I want to see it?

Further, why exactly would Meares wish to jeopardize the welfare of the entire polar party including a man who he considered his friend?
 
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Oh, I think we have to count the Norge flight as his last expedition. (Successful enough that it is what establishes his claim to be the first man to *both* poles!)

I cut Amundsen slack on his 1918-25 expeditions because he was attempting, literally, the impossible, given the state of technology and climate of the time. But I take your points about Scott, of course.

I can understand you and I making allowances for Amundsen's pushing of the boundaries of technology . My point was that Steel Captain throws insults at Scott because his later expedition lead to (partial) failure and the death of his party, and if we apply the same criteria to Amundsen then he must also be classed as a failure because his later expeditions also lead to failure and the death of his party.

Scott was also pushing the boundaries of technology with the motor sleds - ancestors of the modern tracked snow vehicles. Like Amundsen, he paid the price - but SC throws vicious abuse at Scott for trying new technology and failing, while ignoring the fact that Amundsen also tried new technology and failed. That is utterly inconsistent.
 
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I have also read a paper by Bill Alp refuting May's claims which itself is very convincing

So if you accept Bill Alp's papers on the subject of the instructions, how can you reject Bill Alp's papers when he showed by reference to many diaries and other documents that Scott was NOT planning to man haul until in February 1911 he became concerned about dogs and crevasses (as I quoted in post 58)?

Just as with Huntford, you rely on an author when that author blames Scott, but reject the same author when that author does not blame Scott. May one ask how you consider that to be a reasonable way to treat evidence on a historical matter?
 
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Now that the heated exchanges have died down, it would be good to get back to my original question of how history might have been different should Scott, Wilson and Bowers lived to return to Britain? My thoughts are that while Amundsen will not be denied his claim to being first to the South Pole, the RGS and press in the UK will say all they can to make Amundsen look like a man who used underhanded tactics such as raising funds to go to the Arctic while secretly planning to go south instead? Undeniably, there was something not right in how he did that and it did come back to follow him even in his native Norway. We also have to realize that the RGS was invested in Scott's success much like the NGS was invested in Peary's so you have a powerful institution working behind the scenes to do all they can for their man and if that means to crap on the other guy then so be it. The NGS certainly did it to Cook!

I believe in the end Scott becomes a far greater hero upon his return than in the OTL with honor upon honor bestowed on him to the point where he becomes declared the "rightful" winner to the race (at least in the UK). Since it was likely he would have lost at least one foot, I do not know what that means regarding his naval career or other expeditions in the remaining years of his life or if he simply chooses a retirement as the most famous man in Britain until his death in the 1930s or 40s?

There certainly would be many recriminations about whether Simpson, Evans, Atkinson and especially Meares colluded to ensure no relief being sent to meet the returning Pole Party as Scott was expecting (notwithstanding all the conflicting orders and instructions Scott had sent back). The one thing with Scott alive and a national hero is that what he would claim he ordered regarding relief parties will be taken as gospel and without question so he would have the power to condemn any man on his expedition for failing to carry out his orders. Because of that, things might well have gotten very ugly for anyone Scott would have believed failed him if he wanted vindication. Only the inevitable First World War and it dominating all the news would have saved any man Scott accused.
 
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My thoughts are that while Amundsen will not be denied his claim to being first to the South Pole, the RGS and press in the UK will say all they can to make Amundsen look like a man who used underhanded tactics such as raising funds to go to the Arctic while secretly planning to go south instead?
I cannot understand how this might be underhanded. What difference does the destination make if the funds are channelled into the same kind of polar trek?
 
I cannot understand how this might be underhanded. What difference does the destination make if the funds are channelled into the same kind of polar trek?
Also he only turned south after Peary made his claim and south is much harder anyway (its three clicks up for one thing). Nothing happened OTL and it probably won't here as the best man won and at most maybe an annoyed Scott happens to notice somethings about Peary's claim don't add up and realizes he wouldn't have been in a race if that claim hadn't been made. Hence he decides to discredit the guy...
 
I am not thinking Scott would go after Peary but rather he might want to lay the suffering of his return from the Pole on members of his own expedition (most likely Meares who departed on the TERRA NOVA in early 1912 while Scott was on the polar trek still). Then again he might keep silent and allow others to raise the questions about who was ordered to do what and when?
 
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No but where are these orders? I've searched online and I don't come up with anything specific. Where was it discovered and is it direct from Scott or third party? I have also read a paper by Bill Alp refuting May's claims which itself is very convincing however May's paper is buried behind a paywall and any articles concerning her paper include nothing specific just assertions concerning Meares. If there is incontrovertible evidence that Meares did what May claims then I want to see it?

Further, why exactly would Meares wish to jeopardize the welfare of the entire polar party including a man who he considered his friend?

I have the 2012 Karen May article (PDF), by the way, if it would help.
 
I have the 2012 Karen May article (PDF), by the way, if it would help.
Doubt it will change my opinions but I would be happy to read it objectively to compare what she says vs. Bill Alp.
 
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