You also need to add in tonnage for one or more cranes (25 tons for a large, 10 for a small) plus catapults (50 tons per)...
You also need to add in tonnage for one or more cranes (25 tons for a large, 10 for a small) plus catapults (50 tons per)...
@edgeworthy
Do you mind if i borrow your cruiser design for one of my ongoing projects. Not sure Ill use it as a built ship but there is a section where the Dutch consider multiple design options in the mid 30s for a very heavy cruiser/light battleship option for colonial service.
Do you mind if i borrow your cruiser design for one of my ongoing projects. Not sure Ill use it as a built ship but there is a section where the Dutch consider multiple design options in the mid 30s for a very heavy cruiser/light battleship option for colonial service.
A Dunk or a 1047 might be better with the tonnage at this level. To make the cruiser variant worth it, you'd have to make it both lighter and would have to ensure that you could get more flexibility for the cost factor (If we're assuming 3 Dunk, could you get 4 or 5 cruisers; if assuming 2 Dunk, 3 or 4 cruisers).
Mounting all the batter forward might be the way to go to reduce length, as well as switching to triple turrets. Might take some playing around with.
It still comes in under the largest cruiser ever built, though (the Alaska class was 29,771 standard), by a very large margin. For the capabilities given, it would probably be better to shorten the vessel some. To me, 35 knots would be excessive. 33 is the sweet spot, likely. The Myoko et al could outrun a 35 knot vessel as it is, so spending the tonnage to get to 35 knots seems... excessive.
I'll play around and see what I can get by limiting standard displacement to 20k tons. Might play with 3x3 tripple turrets as well just for comparison.
Also, thanks for the CV help. I've been meaning to work on some hybrids, but as you put it, estimating a good weight for a aircraft is a bit of a dark art. I'll give it a go sometime.
No problem, feel free to borrow the designs.
I came up with a Royal Navy version as well, more designed to a budget (Slightly more Algerie, often regarded as the best of the Treaty Cruiser, and 2/3 of Celebes 1. And as I mentioned earlier Springsharp has a habit of over-costing, especially on non-USN Vessels. An 8" Treaty Cruiser built in the early 1930's generally cost around £2million/ $10million. Springsharp costs the 1931 Algerie at £3.909million, and does seem to fudge the historic exchange rate, 1931 was the low point at 3.69USD to the pound, it was the year Britain devalued the currency going off the Gold Standard, in almost every other inter-war year, before and after, it was closer to $5 to £1.)
HMS Hawkins 2, Royal Navy Heavy Cruiser laid down 1931
Displacement:
11,187 t light; 11,768 t standard; 12,593 t normal; 13,253 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(624.38 ft / 612.00 ft) x 66.00 ft x (22.00 / 22.84 ft)
(190.31 m / 186.54 m) x 20.12 m x (6.71 / 6.96 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm 45.0 cal guns - 392.66lbs / 178.11kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1931 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 32.27lbs / 14.64kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 39.0 cal guns - 1.86lbs / 0.84kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,429 lbs / 1,555 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m torpedoes - 1.524 t each, 9.146 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 410.04 ft / 124.98 m 9.75 ft / 2.97 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 410.04 ft / 124.98 m 19.21 ft / 5.86 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 55.00 ft / 16.76 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.50" / 89 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 78,792 shp / 58,779 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,700nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,485 tons
Complement:
593 - 772
Cost:
£4.492 million / $17.970 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 764 tons, 6.1 %
- Guns: 746 tons, 5.9 %
- Weapons: 18 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,159 tons, 25.1 %
- Belts: 823 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 437 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 594 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,264 tons, 10.0 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,356 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,907 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,406 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,229 lbs / 8,269 Kg = 46.8 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.496 / 0.503
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 16.00 %, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 19.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 48.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 17.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.89 ft / 6.37 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.5 %
Waterplane Area: 27,455 Square feet or 2,551 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 603 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Displacement:
11,187 t light; 11,768 t standard; 12,593 t normal; 13,253 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(624.38 ft / 612.00 ft) x 66.00 ft x (22.00 / 22.84 ft)
(190.31 m / 186.54 m) x 20.12 m x (6.71 / 6.96 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm 45.0 cal guns - 392.66lbs / 178.11kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1931 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 32.27lbs / 14.64kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 39.0 cal guns - 1.86lbs / 0.84kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,429 lbs / 1,555 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m torpedoes - 1.524 t each, 9.146 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 410.04 ft / 124.98 m 9.75 ft / 2.97 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 410.04 ft / 124.98 m 19.21 ft / 5.86 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 55.00 ft / 16.76 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.50" / 89 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 78,792 shp / 58,779 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,700nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,485 tons
Complement:
593 - 772
Cost:
£4.492 million / $17.970 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 764 tons, 6.1 %
- Guns: 746 tons, 5.9 %
- Weapons: 18 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,159 tons, 25.1 %
- Belts: 823 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 437 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 594 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,264 tons, 10.0 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,356 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,907 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,406 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,229 lbs / 8,269 Kg = 46.8 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.496 / 0.503
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 16.00 %, 28.00 ft / 8.53 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 19.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 48.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 17.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.89 ft / 6.37 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.5 %
Waterplane Area: 27,455 Square feet or 2,551 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 603 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
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Springsharp i find in general very bad with costs.
I wont be using a royal navy large cruiser design for anything. In this timeline the Brits will be going for new battlecruisers which serves nicely as a a large cruiser hunter killer.
I have a few designs already for that.
Not really but you could guestimate it off pics (using barrel length)?
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFIN_10-45_Bofors.php
Väinämöinen did it on 55ft hull beam.
You could probably do it on 60-65 feet if you put them all in the same sleeve. I've got some stuff on the US Mk3 gun on my other computer. I'll try to dig it up.
Hey, just managed to dig it up. Looking at the schematic for USS Charlotte, I believe that the beam between the bulkheads, here, was 52' 8" on the turret frame. Considering that the gap between the guns on this 2 Gun turret was 7' 1/2", then you could get the required beam with 59' 8 1/2", or basically 60 feet, on a similar type of vessel.
Pic if you want it.
eek! 10" magazine right on the hull? That is a torpedo's dream!!
As the German's found out at Jutland with SMS Pommern.
Heh. Well, this is a vessel from 1905, probably designed circa 1902/03... What Torpedo Protection?
And the originals look it that old, I tell ya.
Favorite part is everything they had to erase.
SMS OTTO VON BISMARCK of German Imperial Navy
launch in march 1940 from Kaiserliche Werft Kiel
Dimension 270 meter length, 33 meter Beam.
Displacement: 58000 metric tons.
Ship Main guns: nine caliber 38 cm, twenty caliber 15 cm.
Anti Aircraft guns: Twenty Flak caliber 10,5 cm, twenty Flak caliber 3,3 cm, twenty Flak caliber 2 cm.
Complement: 151 officers, 2637 enlisted.
Engines 8 Diesel powert boilers for 4 shafts/props
Top Speed: 33 kn or 61 km/h
This first ships of Bismark Class is new Generation of German Battles Ships to counter the British, American and Japanese efforts building new Battle ships
additional the First Aircraft carrier of Zeppelin Class will give Bismark Class the optional combat advantages on oceans
launch in march 1940 from Kaiserliche Werft Kiel
Dimension 270 meter length, 33 meter Beam.
Displacement: 58000 metric tons.
Ship Main guns: nine caliber 38 cm, twenty caliber 15 cm.
Anti Aircraft guns: Twenty Flak caliber 10,5 cm, twenty Flak caliber 3,3 cm, twenty Flak caliber 2 cm.
Complement: 151 officers, 2637 enlisted.
Engines 8 Diesel powert boilers for 4 shafts/props
Top Speed: 33 kn or 61 km/h
This first ships of Bismark Class is new Generation of German Battles Ships to counter the British, American and Japanese efforts building new Battle ships
additional the First Aircraft carrier of Zeppelin Class will give Bismark Class the optional combat advantages on oceans
standard or FL? And what's the protection like? And can it pass the Kiel canal (as is ITTL) with its unknown draft?
The Ship is in size and mass its similar to US Iowa Class battleship
in TL the Imperial Navy give order for Modifikation and Kiel Canal is deepened to 15 meters in 1935-1940
I would suggest either dropping the weight to about 50,000 tons (comparable to an OTL Bismarck) or increasing the guns to 406mm for parity with the US 16" guns.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Eh depending on armor weight would work out, it has a really heavy secondary battery(almost ridiculously so), and has a more powerful powerplant for the extra 3 knots, that would eat up a good chunk of tonnage right there
Of course that secondary battery is ludicrous, 20 15cm guns and 20 10.5cm guns, Bismarck had 12 and 16 respectively, and so did the bloody H class, even the '44 config. That's 28 secondaries only post WWI BB with more were Yamato in her last config with 30 (6 15.5cm, 24 12.7cm) and Jean Bart in her post 1953 config had 33 (9 15.2cm, 24 10cm)
RamscoopRaider
Donor
That's only 32, but still makes little sense. The inner pair of 6", look way too close to the edge of the ship to be functional IRL, drop those and is 24 which is fairly reasonable, 8 AA guns and 16 anti torpedo boat/destroyer
Er, is this even a real ship? I can't find anything on it. Plus, it is neither a battleship, nor do I think it would be post WW1, either, so not sure it'd count on any regard as the point he was making is that no OTL, Post WW1, Battleship had so many.
Plus, that many weapons on a hull 1k larger than the Tennessee class? Either that thing has no armor or they're being generous with the weight of those turrets (the Tennessee class refit would have had either 9x1 6" guns, 4 a side and 1 in the front, or 5x1 2 a side 1 in the front with 2x3 torpedoes, along with a catapult in the rear on either). I've seen some models that gave it 4x2 of the Omaha main turrets as the secondaries, but that still puts the count at 1/3 of that vessel.