So will there be another coup in France, or will Napoleon IV live long enough to get married, and actually solidify the empire? Also who would he get married to, Princess Beatrice of Britain?
A Most Glorious Revolution: Savoyard Spain
- Thread starter morbidteaparty
- Start date
IIRC Victoria had a very good relationship with the Empress. Not to mention it would be a diplomatic coup. I think Beatrice is by far the best and most logical option.
I'm the least Italian person I know! Haha
Well except @Mumby but his family is essentially a Lincolnshire/Nottinghamshire genetic puddle.
IMHO we've reached the true cusp: agrarian reform, which is much more difficult to solve than the Carlist war or the Cuba insurrection. The fact that the conservatives have gained a majority at the Cortes does not promise anything good.
Spain is on the road to recovery yes, though it won't be an easy trek for them. I think @LordKalvan has it right when he says agrarian reform represents the cusp, because it divides the two main political factions within the country.
As for African expansion, I always wondered whether Spanish expansion into Mauretania would be viable. Italian and French relations over Tunisia may well be a stumbling block to the formation of a Mediterranean alliance between French, Italians and Spanish, especially if the Spanish become more supportive of Italian claims in Africa.
I think Napoleon IV's death in the Zulu War is butterflied away by him being emperor, though of course he could be like Alfonso XII of Spain and die young. That said the empire will still be dealing with the ramifications of the end of the war with the Germans, particularly the social unrest unleashed by the military collapse at Metz (TTL's Sedan)
From memory religous differences were something of an impediment to matches between the various French royal lines and those of Britain and Russia (Princess Hélène of Orleans is a good example) so I wouldn't be so sure that a marriage between Napoleon and Beatrice would happen.
Also the influence of marriage ties have always been overestimated in views of nineteenth century foreign policy since state interests trumps family ties.
Maybe a marriage with one of the minor noble Catholic houses?
I'll probably have an update about the French situtation (and maybe the Italian and general European situation) some time soon, but unlike my Frankfurt beast I want to keep this largely limited to Spain (partly as a challenge for myself.)
Also does anyone know what Amadeus died of? He died in 1890 aged 45 IOTL and I haven't been able to find a source on what killed him.
Also does anyone know what Amadeus died of? He died in 1890 aged 45 IOTL and I haven't been able to find a source on what killed him.
I think Napoleons mother wanted a marriage with a Spanish Bourbon for Legitimacy purposes, and as for what he died of......maybe syphilis....
There are a few important things to keep in mind as far as the French situation is concerned:the war with Prussia was much shorter ITTL, and there were not the longish occupation of the north of France nor the damages caused by the siege of Paris and by the Commune. OTOH it is quite likely that the reforms of the early 1870s were also lacking, since the emperor's first concern will be to keep the political situation under control and most likely he's going to govern by decree. The social issues of the second half of the 1860s will not go away on their own, and absent reforms will explode in insurrection sooner rather than later. It can be even worse if the failing health of Louis Napoleon will mean that the politics will be driven by empress Eugenie and the most reactionary part of the Bonapartists, the so-called Mamelukes. The empress may also have a significant (and negative) influence on the education of the Prince Imperial. Overall I think that France in 1875 will be in a significantly worse situation than it was at the same date IOTL.
I can understand your willingness to concentrate on Spain, however it would be difficult to make sensible hypothesis about the future of Spain if they are taken in isolation: what happens in Europe (and in the world) will have a significant impact on Spain.
According to Italian Wiki Amedeo died of pneumonia. I've not been able to find confirmation to this information.
I agree with you, taking Spain in isolation isn't the best approach, and I will do some posts about the state of continental affairs (and given Spain's ties to the Americas undoubtedly they'll pop up as well.) It's more that I want Spain to be the main focus, while informed by other developments within the world.
So I just read up and realized that my home island (Yap) would still be run by Spain at this time. Do me a favor and "Don't" sell us to Germany, since I'm assuming you've butterflied the Spanish-American War. Also do a better job of protecting us from the Japanese. Also I'm not sure if you really want to go out of the way to do this and all but if you've watched 'Moana' well some of the islands have those sailors...so...naval edge?
It was suggested in the 1850s that the Caroline Islands could have served as a useful trade post between the Philippines, Australia, New Guinea and the Americas but the Spanish government never investigated the matter. If in the 1870s (a decade before they started organised occupation) the Spanish government changes course and starts occupation of the islands you may see it develop into something different.
As for conflict with the Americans, I would be surprised if the OTL Spanish-American War developed, largely because it be some thirty years after the start of the timeline.
It probably still would, even if it didn't develop the same way IOTL. The United States had long held interest in the island for just about as long as they held Florida.
Neither Liberal Nor An Empire: France in the Aftermath of the Humiliation of 1870
In the aftermath of the humiliation against the Prussians, and the suppression of worers unrest in Paris, the liberal reforms which had characterised the empire during the 1860s were halted as the emperor suspended parliament and returned to issuing decrees. In this he maintained the support of the army which retained a large presence in the cities so as to suppress the worer's unrest which had fermented during the war. The continued deployment of the army suppressed, for the moment, the tensions which threatened to overturn the established order. However the empire was at it's nadi: the republicans were agitating for greater reform and in some cases the overthrow of the monarchy, while the Catholic areas which formed Napoleon's base had been deeply angered by the Italian occupation of Rome, to which the emperor had responded with a diplomatic protest. [1]
Napoleon III, c. 1872
The government's suppression of worker unrest in the major cities of Paris, Marseille and Lyon had forced some of the more radical elements underground. Nevertheless the regime remained shaky, with elections to parliament in early 1871 returning a monarchist majority of Legitmist and Orleanist supporters, who represented Catholic opposition to the regime. Government was ordered through plebiscite, a return to the policy of the 1850s, with army remaining active in public life as the supporters of the regime. Gradually the repressive measures of 1870-1872 were loosened, slowly returing the country to the limited constitutionalism of the 1860s, though parliament remained largely an advisory body with limited power. France's economy gradually stabilised following the government's return to stability, though while the worker's protests had gradually dissipated, the underlying tensions were largely ignored, while the republican movment became more radical as it was forced underground. The death of Napoleon III in 1874 [2] and the succession of the young emperor Napoleon IV saw the empire endure a further period of flux. While the young emperor was not particularly politically inclined, the regime's instability had seen the conservative factions return to prominence with the empress and the "Mamelukes" holding a strong influence at court, though the moderate conservative government of Adolphe Thiers reined in some of these aspects.
The government's complete refusal to countenance reform, and the stifling athmosphere of the imperial court stood in sharp contrast to the earlier years of Napoleon III's reign. The reactionaries dominance saw a shift in policy amed at strengthening the ties of the rural Catholic population to the regime, including the expansion of Catholic education and privileging of status for the church in regards to the state. While these measures secured the support of many who viewed the imperial monarchy as infinitely superior to a republican system (no matter the empire's deep flaws), the failure to alleviate many of the social tensions which had dogged the regime since the 1860s ensured that the nation remained on the brink of insurrection. Isolated diplomatically and riven with social problems, the new boy-emperor found himself faced with a seemingly insurmountable task.
BRIEF NOTES
[1] The withdrawal of the French regiments from Rome in August 1870, and the lack of Austrian reaction to the swift Italian occupation of Rome ensured that the French government could do little more than offer a diplomatic protest, which deeply inflamed Catholic sentiment in the empire.
[2] Napoleon had been plagued by kidney problems during the latter half of his reign and his death in 1874 further destabilised the monarchy, as the Empress and the reactionary elements of the Bonapartists (referred to as Arcadiens or Mamelukes) opposed any form of reform which would challenge the central power of the emperor.
Napoleon III, c. 1872
The government's complete refusal to countenance reform, and the stifling athmosphere of the imperial court stood in sharp contrast to the earlier years of Napoleon III's reign. The reactionaries dominance saw a shift in policy amed at strengthening the ties of the rural Catholic population to the regime, including the expansion of Catholic education and privileging of status for the church in regards to the state. While these measures secured the support of many who viewed the imperial monarchy as infinitely superior to a republican system (no matter the empire's deep flaws), the failure to alleviate many of the social tensions which had dogged the regime since the 1860s ensured that the nation remained on the brink of insurrection. Isolated diplomatically and riven with social problems, the new boy-emperor found himself faced with a seemingly insurmountable task.
BRIEF NOTES
[1] The withdrawal of the French regiments from Rome in August 1870, and the lack of Austrian reaction to the swift Italian occupation of Rome ensured that the French government could do little more than offer a diplomatic protest, which deeply inflamed Catholic sentiment in the empire.
[2] Napoleon had been plagued by kidney problems during the latter half of his reign and his death in 1874 further destabilised the monarchy, as the Empress and the reactionary elements of the Bonapartists (referred to as Arcadiens or Mamelukes) opposed any form of reform which would challenge the central power of the emperor.
Last edited:
And so, tensions between Italy and France would rise... I wonder if Tunisia may be a possible ignition point.
Interesting that Bismarck preferred the confederational path for Germany unification and was clement with France... But I think the French would feel soon a complex of encirclement (what a news) if at the South will lay a Spanish-Italian alliance, in the North a British-German one.. Austria is the wild card at this point (supposing that Russia would ally with France) if this kind of blocks will rise in Europe.
Interesting that Bismarck preferred the confederational path for Germany unification and was clement with France... But I think the French would feel soon a complex of encirclement (what a news) if at the South will lay a Spanish-Italian alliance, in the North a British-German one.. Austria is the wild card at this point (supposing that Russia would ally with France) if this kind of blocks will rise in Europe.
Relations between the two would be tenser (and if there's a tarriff war between the two as there was IOTL it's likely relations between the two will be much worse than OTL.) France is likely to have a worse 1870s and perhaps more instability than even the Third Republic managed.
Thats rather sad to hear, I rather like Napoleon IV myself. Why not have him marry some Savoy/Bourbon cousin and enter into a mutual defense treaty with Spain. It would have funny consequences down the line of World Wars.