octoberman

Banned
The POD is instead of turning isolationist Tokugawa develop a navy on par with Korea and launches amphibious invasion of later Jin. Later they vasalize Korea. The finally invade China after Shun dynasty collapses the Ming Dynasty and divide it among the clans of Japan

How will this affect the history of China and Korea ?
Will the opium wars still happen ?
Will the century of humiliation still happen ?
 
I can't see Japan being able to invade China and even lesser to colonise and divide that between Japanese clans. It is too large and too populous. Yes, Manchus did that but they established their own dynasty and begun to abide Chinese imperial traditions. This path would be more likely for Japan altough China would be puppet state. But even that hardly would last long time.
 
Yeah, the Japanese already did that a few decades ago, it didn't go well. Going South isn't really an option as well. However, what I can see happening is the Tokugawa supporting the Ming loyalist regime, which they did with Zheng Zhilong by sending him some mercenaries.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Shogunate and, before them, the Taikō could barely handle the Koreans (on land the Samurai did okay, at sea it was an utter "what happened to all of our ships" disaster)
much less China.

To use the same line I regularly bring up about WW II - WAY too much China and FAR too few Japanese.
 
The POD is instead of turning isolationist Tokugawa develop a navy on par with Korea and launches amphibious invasion of later Jin. Later they vasalize Korea. The finally invade China after Shun dynasty collapses the Ming Dynasty and divide it among the clans of Japan
Did later Jin have much of Japan Sea coast before 1636?
 
This path would be more likely for Japan altough China would be puppet state. But even that hardly would last long time.
Japanese are quite plugged into Chinese imperial traditions. A Japanese Dynasty isn't impossible on those grounds.
The POD is instead of turning isolationist Tokugawa develop a navy on par with Korea and launches amphibious invasion of later Jin. Later they vasalize Korea. The finally invade China after Shun dynasty collapses the Ming Dynasty and divide it among the clans of Japan
This would require a continued major conflict between Ming and Korea against Japan. Without that, there is no reason for Japan to remain militarized for the following 50 years.
 
Okay, let me not be a kill joy like the rest of these guys and assume it can happen, what's the most likely way it can happen?.

Japan will have to either ally with the Portuguese or incorporate the naval capabilities of the Southern Coast Daiymos and Wakou pirates.

The best thing going for Japan in the Imjin war was their speed. While it did back fire in that they didn't completely eliminate the military capabilities of the region, they did rapidly overwhelm Korea. With a Navy shadowing them with Supplies, they can keep up that speed and make it to Beijing or the Yellow river in general in 3 months to 6 months, catching the Emperor by surprise. Whether they capture, kill or pursue him, it'll still be quite the blow for China.(Of course, the former two are preferable).

Now, in OTL the Korean Navy especially with Admiral Yi leading them was superior to the Japanese but butterflies removing Yi or Portuguese aid being sufficient to contain him and you have a naval supply line maintaining the speed of the Japanese.

However, the Chinese were able to defeat the Japanese, several times(I don't think they lost once) using a smaller army and in foreign but friendly territory (Korea). So I highly doubt they'll be able to defeat the Chinese in the field enough times, maybe if they got enough Steppe peoples as allies or foedorati they could defeat the Chinese in the field, consistently.

Finally, they'll need Chinese support but... it's not like the average successful warlord in any era in Chinese history started out with an army 100,000 strong. As long as they're able to maintain their position as top dog, ally with Chinese defectors and sinicize their dynasty, then this unlikely matter of events may just succeed.
 
Okay, let me not be a kill joy like the rest of these guys and assume it can happen, what's the most likely way it can happen?.

Japan will have to either ally with the Portuguese or incorporate the naval capabilities of the Southern Coast Daiymos and Wakou pirates.

The best thing going for Japan in the Imjin war was their speed. While it did back fire in that they didn't completely eliminate the military capabilities of the region, they did rapidly overwhelm Korea. With a Navy shadowing them with Supplies, they can keep up that speed and make it to Beijing or the Yellow river in general in 3 months to 6 months, catching the Emperor by surprise. Whether they capture, kill or pursue him, it'll still be quite the blow for China.(Of course, the former two are preferable).

Now, in OTL the Korean Navy especially with Admiral Yi leading them was superior to the Japanese but butterflies removing Yi or Portuguese aid being sufficient to contain him and you have a naval supply line maintaining the speed of the Japanese.

However, the Chinese were able to defeat the Japanese, several times(I don't think they lost once) using a smaller army and in foreign but friendly territory (Korea). So I highly doubt they'll be able to defeat the Chinese in the field enough times, maybe if they got enough Steppe peoples as allies or foedorati they could defeat the Chinese in the field, consistently.

Finally, they'll need Chinese support but... it's not like the average successful warlord in any era in Chinese history started out with an army 100,000 strong. As long as they're able to maintain their position as top dog, ally with Chinese defectors and sinicize their dynasty, then this unlikely matter of events may just succeed.
The worst thing for Japan was also their speed. The rapid advance meant their supply lines could never keep up (they marched across 320 km in around 2 weeks, going from the southern coast to modern day Seoul), so guerilla fighters were going to harry their land-based supply lines endlessly. Which relates to the other major issue the Japanese had on land: all the guerillas they kept inspiring with their wanton brutality. The Japanese army slaughtered thousands of peasants (like Jinju, when the town wouldn't surrender). I've heard that that was due to the Japanese being more used to feudal warfare, wherein the conquered peasants would obey their new masters, and reacted poorly to the Korean peasantry fleeing the fields or taking up arms. In any case, the Japanese were drunk on success and too bloodthirsty to properly consolidate their holdings in Korea.

As for the steppe people, Nurhaci allegedly offered to help the Joseon after the Japanese sent an invasion into Jianzhou Jurchen lands. Not only did the Japanese disregard the Jurchen as allies and immediately proceeded to antagonize them upon entering their vicinity, the Jurchen were also too divided to pose a threat to anyone besides other Jurchens at this point. The Imjin War was a great opportunity for Nurhaci to take advantage of the Ming being too focused on Korea to intervene in his unification efforts. It was another 20 years of conquest and consolidation before Nurhaci was confident enough to openly oppose the Ming. In short, even if the Japanese managed to win over some Jurchens, the other Jurchen tribes would enter the fray to capitalize on their rivals being occupied in China. And intervening in Jurchen unification means the Japanese get even more bogged down on the mainland, sapping their momentum and allowing the Chinese to consolidate again.

As for defectors, it's the same issue with Korea. If they're doing well enough to seriously threaten the Chinese, they'll continue their blunt approach of conquest and slaughter without defectors. If they're doing poorly enough to try to woo defectors, they're not in a good spot to win. With the Qing, they spent decades paying off Ming commanders, setting up smuggling networks, marrying Chinese commanders to Manchu princesses, and getting Han Chinese commanders and advisors, which made the transition relatively seamless. They even maintained the Ming legal codes and local administrators. The armies that conquered China were majority Han Chinese. In contrast, the Japanese, based on their performance and actions in Korea, are more liable to try to subjugate everyone, set up the Japanese social system, and slaughter resistance, which, in Korea, bred even more resistance. The Japanese didn't have Koreans advising Toyotomi Hideyoshi, governing whole provinces with Korean legal codes maintained, or comprising major armies. What they did have a lot of were Korean noses and ears cut off of their victims, salted, and shipped back to Japan as trophies to be stored in shrines that still exist to this day.

And that's not even getting into the Japanese and their disunity. Konishi Yukinaga and Katō Kiyomasa hated each other for religious reasons and competed for glory rather than cooperate, Konishi Yukinaga hid important diplomatic information from Toyotomi Hideyoshi and tried to dupe him into making a peace without Hideyoshi's demands, and the rivalries that formed during the Imjin War erupted into another phase of civil war in Japan in the Battle of Sekigahara. The moment Toyotomi Hideyoshi died with a child for an heir, any chance of Japanese consolidation on the mainland was doomed. There were too many ambitious men back in Japan with armies and the men who wanted peace were old and dying off. If the Imjin War is successful, then Japan split up Korea between the daimyo loyal to the Toyotomi, forcing those daimyo to garrison Korea against guerillas, Jurchen raiders, Chinese forces, each other, etc. Which means Tokugawa Ieyasu has even more of an advantage marching on the Toyotomi and their contentious regent, Ishida Mitsunari, who managed to alienate such commanders as Katō Kiyomasa. Which means the Toyotomi-aligned forces in Korea are at war with the Tokugawa forces in Japan, which doesn't bode well for Japanese efforts on the mainland.

This is all also Toyotomi Japan, not Tokugawa Japan. Tokugawa Japan likely has an even tougher time trying to achieve any conquests, considering the bakufu never managed to win over the tozama daimyos. The tozama held that grudge for 200 years, culminating in the Boshin War.

In short, the Japanese were not as politically stable (succession stability, not prone to civil wars while gaining their initial foothold), active in courting defectors, or patient as the OTL conquerors of China. The Mongols and Manchu spent decades on conquering China, conquered it piecemeal, and got many, many defectors during the process. The Japanese were trying to blitz through Korea, got bogged down, slaughtered tens of thousands of peasants, and then proceeded to reignite their civil war within 2 years of their leader dying. The Imjin War is not comparable to the Mongol or Manchu conquests of China by any stretch, except maybe body count.
 
The Shogunate and, before them, the Taikō could barely handle the Koreans (on land the Samurai did okay, at sea it was an utter "what happened to all of our ships" disaster)
much less China.

To use the same line I regularly bring up about WW II - WAY too much China and FAR too few Japanese.
Learn from the disaster and rebuild. Get better ships. Ming China a few decades after Hideyoshi’s Invasion was in free fall.
 
Learn from the disaster and rebuild. Get better ships. Ming China a few decades after Hideyoshi’s Invasion was in free fall.
And Japan was in civil war within 2 years of the invasion, only concluding with the destruction of the Toyotomi clan in 1615's Siege of Osaka. The Tokugawa clan had to consolidate Japan and ensure their clan actually survived their opposition, unlike the Toyotomi, and root out internal threats before it could even attempt to look outwards. Given the fact they couldn't have expected the Ming to collapse as spectacularly as they did during the period Japan needed to stabilize itself after over a century of civil war and a 7 year long war that yielded a bunch of potters from the mainland, they had no reason to prioritize building up an expensive navy over reducing and regulating the overseas trade that enriched their erstwhile rivals and considerably restive vassals in the south. The Imjin War did not give enough returns to justify an encore for the cost.

And even if they some how did, they'd then have to contend with the nascent Qing dynasty. The Qing, which would've had much more success wooing the Han Chinese by virtue of leaving Chinese administrators to govern the Chinese with Chinese laws rather than force a foreign system upon them as the Japanese would have.
 

octoberman

Banned
Okay, let me not be a kill joy like the rest of these guys and assume it can happen, what's the most likely way it can happen?.

Japan will have to either ally with the Portuguese or incorporate the naval capabilities of the Southern Coast Daiymos and Wakou pirates.

The best thing going for Japan in the Imjin war was their speed. While it did back fire in that they didn't completely eliminate the military capabilities of the region, they did rapidly overwhelm Korea. With a Navy shadowing them with Supplies, they can keep up that speed and make it to Beijing or the Yellow river in general in 3 months to 6 months, catching the Emperor by surprise. Whether they capture, kill or pursue him, it'll still be quite the blow for China.(Of course, the former two are preferable).

Now, in OTL the Korean Navy especially with Admiral Yi leading them was superior to the Japanese but butterflies removing Yi or Portuguese aid being sufficient to contain him and you have a naval supply line maintaining the speed of the Japanese.

However, the Chinese were able to defeat the Japanese, several times(I don't think they lost once) using a smaller army and in foreign but friendly territory (Korea). So I highly doubt they'll be able to defeat the Chinese in the field enough times, maybe if they got enough Steppe peoples as allies or foedorati they could defeat the Chinese in the field, consistently.

Finally, they'll need Chinese support but... it's not like the average successful warlord in any era in Chinese history started out with an army 100,000 strong. As long as they're able to maintain their position as top dog, ally with Chinese defectors and sinicize their dynasty, then this unlikely matter of events may just succeed.

How will this affect the history of China and Korea ?
Will the opium wars still happen ?
Will the century of humiliation still happen ?
 

octoberman

Banned
As for defectors, it's the same issue with Korea. If they're doing well enough to seriously threaten the Chinese, they'll continue their blunt approach of conquest and slaughter without defectors. If they're doing poorly enough to try to woo defectors, they're not in a good spot to win. With the Qing, they spent decades paying off Ming commanders, setting up smuggling networks, marrying Chinese commanders to Manchu princesses, and getting Han Chinese commanders and advisors, which made the transition relatively seamless. They even maintained the Ming legal codes and local administrators. The armies that conquered China were majority Han Chinese. In contrast, the Japanese, based on their performance and actions in Korea, are more liable to try to subjugate everyone, set up the Japanese social system, and slaughter resistance, which, in Korea, bred even more resistance. The Japanese didn't have Koreans advising Toyotomi Hideyoshi, governing whole provinces with Korean legal codes maintained, or comprising major armies. What they did have a lot of were Korean noses and ears cut off of their victims, salted, and shipped back to Japan as trophies to be stored in shrines that still exist to this day.
What if Tokugawa did it like the Qing
 
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