So this is an idea that has been with me for an undetermined period of time. Since Chinese traders were responsible for creating large Chinese creole communities all over South East Asia, Japan had a period where Japanese traders flourish all over South East Asia and East Asia, and Korea once had a reputation for having ships that were actually quite advanced, (I am talking about the Korean turtle ships,) how come none of these countries formed large creole communities in India before the British colonial period of India? The closest thing to a creole community formed in India by East Asians was formed by Chinese people, and that happened in the British Raj. So what would happen if China/Korea/Japan/ all three of those countries formed large creole communities in India, what would be the earliest date these communities could form, and how long could they last? Plus, if the communities keep up until the British Raj, what would happen to them in the British Raj period?
WI there was a large East Asian community in India?
- Thread starter HyperMuscularDemon
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One of the reasons is certainly the fact that India was never unified, also during the Age of Discoveries it would be very difficult as the Europeans (early on the Portuguese and Dutch) wouldn't be very happy to have Chinese concurrence
There were and are larger Chinese communities than you think. Certain trades only Dalits would perform, dealing in crafts and commerce with cow leather have often been performed by Chinese in India.
Ah okay. But how can a larger more prosperous Chinese community in India form?
India is so populous that you really need a titanic migration to feel it
I mean something like Chinese, Korean, and Japanese communities in Indian port cities.
Well, all three were very isolationist and neglected the navy for the entire 1600-1800 period. Korea was quite bad with foreign trade and overseas efforts (the turtle ships weren't built for long distance trade missions) for the entire Joseon period compared to their Goryeo predecessors, the Ming, aside from Zheng He's expeditions, similarly weren't quite as sea-savvy as the Song before them, and the Japanese were busy with land-based civil war for quite a while. Korea and Japan were also quite aggressive with preventing outsiders from entering and their citizens from leaving. Basically, the majority of the 1300-1800 period was not a great time for Asian maritime developments (there were bright spots, but those were pretty brief).
Plus, there was the entirety of SE Asia to go to and potentially settle down in rather than make the much further (so longer and more dangerous) trek to India. Not only that, having a population that didn't just assimilate into the local culture would likely entail continued immigration, which would've been prevented by wars, invasions, and border control measures back home that would hamper sustained long distance travel.
More trade, more interest in trade back home, more naval tradition and better ships (safety and speed, in short). There has to be justification for making the trek and it needs to be safe enough that enough people can keep undertaking that journey to create a distinct creole population that doesn't assimilate. There's a reason enough of a Muslim community managed to exist in Goryeo Korea that their cuisine (arak => soju) and references to them (bawdy songs) endured in the local culture. At the same time, once those factors disappeared with the end of Mongol rule, Islam basically went extinct in Korea for centuries.
Song, Yuan, and early Ming did undertake many trade journeys to India, but the biggest problem was that it's so distant. One must either cross the isthmus of the Malay Peninsula or go through the Straits of Malacca. So the Chinese would stop in Southeast Asia and other communities, especially Persian Muslims, would obtain the goods for them which was more profitable (and of course said states would often pay tribute to the Imperial court). This was what earlier Chinese states going back to the Tang Dynasty did.
Japan and Korea didn't have much of a maritime tradition. The only way I can think of them developing one early is putting them directly at odds with the ruler of China which means making them divided countries. Maybe Baekje does better and becomes more maritime and sends out long-distance trade to circumvent the China problem? The era of the Mongol invasions might work too since while Goryeo is a lot more screwed having a land border, Japan has good enough topography the Mongols could take maybe half the country and leave the rest independent enough to send out long-distance trade. That era is good too since Tran dynasty Vietnam had an antagonistic relationship with China to the point they became paranoid that Chinese merchants were spies for another Mongol invasion and after 1284 seems to have had an almost sakoku/haijin-esque policy regarding foreign trade. Maybe they can ally with Japan and get long-distance trade a kickstart?
The other way would be keeping Buddhism more of a force in India which as Southern China becomes more of an economic powerhouse creates an incentive for more maritime voyages for pilgrims to visit various holy sites. But it seems also at least some Buddhist pilgrims stopped when East Asian Buddhism was on a lot more solid ground philosophically and they no longer needed to study under Indian monks or obtain scriptures there, which may have to also do with the decline of Indian Buddhism in general.
I think the community, if large enough, would survive until the Chinese government stops supporting it at which point it would assimilate into the general population.
Japan and Korea didn't have much of a maritime tradition. The only way I can think of them developing one early is putting them directly at odds with the ruler of China which means making them divided countries. Maybe Baekje does better and becomes more maritime and sends out long-distance trade to circumvent the China problem? The era of the Mongol invasions might work too since while Goryeo is a lot more screwed having a land border, Japan has good enough topography the Mongols could take maybe half the country and leave the rest independent enough to send out long-distance trade. That era is good too since Tran dynasty Vietnam had an antagonistic relationship with China to the point they became paranoid that Chinese merchants were spies for another Mongol invasion and after 1284 seems to have had an almost sakoku/haijin-esque policy regarding foreign trade. Maybe they can ally with Japan and get long-distance trade a kickstart?
The other way would be keeping Buddhism more of a force in India which as Southern China becomes more of an economic powerhouse creates an incentive for more maritime voyages for pilgrims to visit various holy sites. But it seems also at least some Buddhist pilgrims stopped when East Asian Buddhism was on a lot more solid ground philosophically and they no longer needed to study under Indian monks or obtain scriptures there, which may have to also do with the decline of Indian Buddhism in general.
I think the community, if large enough, would survive until the Chinese government stops supporting it at which point it would assimilate into the general population.
If china somehow becomes more of a maritime power Sri Lankan would seem an ideal place for a chinese setteler colony since unlike most of the Indian subcontinent the population is neither Hindu or Muslim but Buddhist so while there are a number of different types of Buddhism I would assume Chinese Buddhist would fine more in common with Indian Buddhists even if there are of a different denomination. Outside of religion Sri Lanka is also a ideal maritime trading hub and in theory could serve as a midway point for the Chinese to conduct trade with the Europeans and Arabs so they only need to travel as far as india instead of going all the way to China which should cut sea trade route times considerably makeing Sri Lanka a kind of market place of the east.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Sri Lanka - Wikipedia
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There was some cultral crossover between Indian and Chinese Buddhists with Chinese monks travelling there on pilgramage, such as Xuanzang who is a great source on Indian politics in this period.
The founder of Zen buddhism is reported to be one of these Indian Monks who travelled to China.
Perhaps if India retained a large buddhist population due to Islam not existing then there would be more movements between India and China with some settling in either state, perhaps some buddhists may flee there after anti buddhist persecutions although geography makes this more difficult.
The founder of Zen buddhism is reported to be one of these Indian Monks who travelled to China.
Perhaps if India retained a large buddhist population due to Islam not existing then there would be more movements between India and China with some settling in either state, perhaps some buddhists may flee there after anti buddhist persecutions although geography makes this more difficult.
My preferred route would be a Muslim dynasty being the ones to take over from the Yuan- either a handover to Islamised nomadic elements or a Han revolution except the Han leaders just happen to be Muslim. Perhaps timurs final campaign is successful and results in a Muslim yuan dynast re establishing yuan authority in china proper
Increased Chinese Muslim population then allows more investment in pilgrimage boats, and if the boats are going across the Indian Ocean anyway, they might as well take goods as well as pilgrims.
It’s possibly a better route than Buddhist pilgrimages because, as noted, Buddhism in china didn’t maintain an emphasis on pilgrimage to india, while it is an essential element of Islam. Also like how Christians in the ottoman Balkans started imitating their Muslim counterparts by making pilgrimages to Jerusalem and referring to themselves as hajis, if Muslim pilgrims are already stopping over in India on their way to Mecca, buddhists could emulate their rulers by hopping on those pilgrimage ships and seeing India.
As India is more a centre of Islamic learning than china in 1400-1600, this could also spur the extension of Indian Sufi networks into china as they seek the patronage of the new Chinese dynasty, creating a new translation movement comparable to buddhisms initial spread to china. In fact if India is portrayed to the Chinese as the source of their Islam, Islam could be spun as the new Buddhism.
Increased Chinese Muslim population then allows more investment in pilgrimage boats, and if the boats are going across the Indian Ocean anyway, they might as well take goods as well as pilgrims.
It’s possibly a better route than Buddhist pilgrimages because, as noted, Buddhism in china didn’t maintain an emphasis on pilgrimage to india, while it is an essential element of Islam. Also like how Christians in the ottoman Balkans started imitating their Muslim counterparts by making pilgrimages to Jerusalem and referring to themselves as hajis, if Muslim pilgrims are already stopping over in India on their way to Mecca, buddhists could emulate their rulers by hopping on those pilgrimage ships and seeing India.
As India is more a centre of Islamic learning than china in 1400-1600, this could also spur the extension of Indian Sufi networks into china as they seek the patronage of the new Chinese dynasty, creating a new translation movement comparable to buddhisms initial spread to china. In fact if India is portrayed to the Chinese as the source of their Islam, Islam could be spun as the new Buddhism.
Ah okay. You all make good points. However, there is a possible point of creation of a Chinese creole community (or Japanese, or Korean, etc…) in India. Knowing how much Chinese dynasties changed over time, or were invaded by nomadic invaders from the Mongolian/Siberian steppes, it could be probable for Chinese traders and merchants who do not like the new dynasty to flee by sea to India to seek profit there. Also, given how China recognized the Chola dynasty, it could be that Chinese merchants, in search of profit, set up communities in India, integrate and mingle well with the Indians, (mostly Dravidians, at least intially), and continue to trade. Another niche point of interest is religion. If establish early enough, Chinese traders and merchants coming into India may pick up Hinduism, which may have interesting side effects later on.
Given Chinese communities exist in Malaysia and Indonesia, there's no reason why there couldn't be communities formed in the major trading cities of India
I think that OP wants to mean a long-standing East Asian community existing in pre-colonial India, like how the Farsi Zoroastrians, St. Thomas Christians, and Cochin Jews have been residing in India for centuries before European colonialism begun in the subcontinent, whereas the Northeastern States only became a part of India after the arrival of the British.
You'd need a reason for them to bypass Southeast Asia and go all the way to India instead. Southeast Asia already had large Chinese communities ready to take them in. In fact, they probably even already had relatives in Malacca or wherever to help with the transition.
Why would they need to bypass Southeast Asia? Malacca is a stop-off point