WI: 'Sadism' instead of Marxism

[Zachariah]

Donatien Alphonse François, Marquis de Sade, was a French nobleman, revolutionary politician, philosopher, and writer, famous for his libertine sexuality. His works include novels, short stories, plays, dialogues, and political tracts; in his lifetime some were published under his own name, while others appeared anonymously, of which Sade denied being the author. Sade is best known for his erotic works, which combined philosophical discourse with pornography, depicting sexual fantasies with an emphasis on violence, criminality, and blasphemy against Christianity.

But he was also a vocal representative of the radical far left Piques section of the National Convention, and a writer of several political pamphlets, in which he called for the implementation of direct vote, completely and continually denying the right to property, and asserting that the greatest social struggle was not that against the domination of the crown nor the church, but of the proletariat against all of the upper classes who conspired to keep them subjugated. He was a proponent of extreme freedom, unrestrained by morality, religion, social class or law.

The words 'sadism' and 'sadist' are derived from his name, and IOTL, have predominantly sexual connotations. But what if the Marquis de Sade managed to garner enough popular support to be acknowledged/depicted as the pioneering leader of the revolutionary socialist movement instead in an ATL, with TTL's 'Sadism' taking the place of Marxism? Just what might a Sadist Socialist Republic look like? And how much greater would the moral panic against Communism be in such an ATL, in which it was intrinsically linked with Marquis de Sade's views, works and acts?

 

[Alexander the Average]

The words 'sadism' and 'sadist' are derived from his name, and IOTL, have predominantly sexual connotations. But what if the Marquis de Sade managed to garner enough popular support to be acknowledged/depicted as the pioneering leader of the revolutionary socialist movement instead in an ATL, with TTL's 'Sadism' taking the place of Marxism? Just what might a Sadist Socialist Republic look like? And how much greater would the moral panic against Communism be in such an ATL, in which it was intrinsically linked with Marquis de Sade's views, works and acts?

I think it's too early to take the place of Marxism but a more influential Sade could be a figure in defining the French revolutionary tradition in the same way that Jacobinism did and could be a more significant early socialist thinker. The trouble is that, having read a few of his works, a lot of he said was so edgy and out there that I don't see people taking it all that seriously. If you had him tone down the sex and blasphemy and focus more on the critique of the bourgeoisie he might be more influential but then he wouldn't be Sade.

 

[X_X]

If you thought conservatives hated communism now, imagine if it was founded by a man who wrote stories featuring sex with children.

 

[Zachariah]

If you thought conservatives hated communism now, imagine if it was founded by a man who wrote stories featuring sex with children.

Indeed. How much of an impact do you think that it might have upon Communism's chances of success ITTL?

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Indeed. How much of an impact do you think that it might have upon Communism's chances of success ITTL?

Try justifying sex with kids today. The ramp it up with genuine willingness to lynch

 

[Alexander the Average]

If you thought conservatives hated communism now, imagine if it was founded by a man who wrote stories featuring sex with children.

Try justifying sex with kids today. The ramp it up with genuine willingness to lynch

To be fair there is an argument that what he wrote wasn't an endorsement of the various horrific acts depicted so much as a critique of the society that allows people to act on these perverse desires. Justine and Juliet are arguably attacks on the power and privilege of the day by presenting a world where powerful bastards are able to get away with whatever they want and nice people suffer because the world is not a just place. Philosophy in the Bedroom and 120 Days in Sodom are grotesque displays of the decadence and perversity of the wealthy and noble-born interspersed with the odd essay about how the existence of God is not supported rationally.

Of course for him to be taken in that way it would require that the audience is willing to take a charitable reading of his work instead of portraying him as a deranged pervert who wants to molest our children and corrupt the youth. Given that would-be conservatives would be attacking him and his ideas I don't see him getting a positive hearing.

 

[Maoistic]

Well, BDSM is nowadays more influential than Marxism, so there you go.

 

[Bundit]

Well, I think at alternate history Marx could have been following ideas from Sade instead of Hegel, so when he writes "The Communist Manifesto", he is attacking against structures of family, religion and classes as restrictions of personal freedom. That could still inspire revolutions within opressed people. Lenin whose brother was hanged for his part of trying to kill Alexander III, would be eventually radicalized by Marx and Nietzschen and start making his lessons of "sadism", communal wifesharing, etc.

1905 russian revolution has no leader or ideology, but it would leave much discontent, which makes sadism look more acceptable by people. I don't see that following years would have been much different to our history. After Russian Civil War the destruction of old structures would be done as easily in spirit of "Nietzschen" than "Sosialism". Though it might have been bit gentler toward small business. Stalin would end in power as our, though some of military and political personel might have been saved from his purge, he would shock the world with collectivisation of families and separating childs from their parents into daycare factories, untill they get their freedom as adults at age of 12, 18 or something between.

And because any american could read different text, they have way different wiev of sadism than Soviet... Communist Union (?), they would be wery afraid of communist, who would take their childs, put them into slavery and after they get their freedom, they can rape or be raped without punishment.

 

[Cornelis]

Sade was a very minor player during the Revolution and he was already quite hated for his pornographic/philosophical production (Robespierre wanted him dead for example). I can not think of a PoD allowing his political ideas to gain traction in the general population with so many left-leaning political thinkers with less history.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

I've read de Sade and my take on his works is the same as that of Alexander the Average. They seem meant as satire but people took and take them seriously.

But no, you can't write that stuff and be taken seriously in other areas. For example, imagine if Marx (or Engles, or Lenin) had been a pornographer.

 

[wtw]

I just can't imagine this happening de Sade was hated even by the revolutionary forces in the end

 

[Alexander the Average]

I just can't imagine this happening de Sade was hated even by the revolutionary forces in the end

In part because he got too squeamish and became a moderate. Maybe the PoD could be that he throws himself into supporting the terror and the Thermidorian reaction never happens.

 

[wtw]

In part because he got too squeamish and became a moderate. Maybe the PoD could be that he throws himself into supporting the terror and the Thermidorian reaction never happens.

Might work, still it would make people into sadism and BDSM seem even more political than usual and hated by the right/ religious

 

[Cornelis]

In part because he got too squeamish and became a moderate. Maybe the PoD could be that he throws himself into supporting the terror and the Thermidorian reaction never happens.

Moderate ? He was imprisonned after an anti-religious speech at the Convention, at the time when Robespierre was eliminating his left-wing opposition.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Moderate ? He was imprisonned after an anti-religious speech at the Convention, at the time when Robespierre was eliminating his left-wing opposition.

I was under the impression he was accused of moderatism. That said just because Robespierre accused you of something doesn't mean you did it.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Like how because Marx was Jewish we had the whole "Judeo-Bolshevism" canard thrown against both the Jews and Marxists, here we'd have communism/socialism instead associated with perversion instead. I suppose it isn't too far from OTL with the whole "communism will destroy the nuclear family" thing, but it's still plenty of ammunition to be used against TTL's left. And I think any communist state would still have the "Judeo-Bolshevism" thing since after all, the old order being overthrown must be because of the world-ruling Jews.

Might work, still it would make people into sadism and BDSM seem even more political than usual and hated by the right/ religious

Not necessarily. Maybe OTL sadism is named after some other writer. Is there necessarily a direct path between Marquis de Sade's writings and the modern BDSM subculture after all? Such a subculture will probably still exist given a tolerant-enough society.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Not necessarily. Maybe OTL sadism is named after some other writer. Is there necessarily a direct path between Marquis de Sade's writings and the modern BDSM subculture after all? Such a subculture will probably still exist given a tolerant-enough society.

I think I remember reading somewhere that Descatre and/or Rousseau was into that sort of thing.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Marxism became influential because Marx made socioeconomic arguments that are hugely influential to this day outside of leftist politics, and leftist political thinkers built on them. You’d have leftist politics without Marx, but I can’t imagine giving leftist politics in general the name of one crackpot early radical.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Not necessarily. Maybe OTL sadism is named after some other writer. Is there necessarily a direct path between Marquis de Sade's writings and the modern BDSM subculture after all? Such a subculture will probably still exist given a tolerant-enough society.

There’s no connection between Sade’s philosophy and any modern practice. His books are just dreary torture porn with a little grade school libertine stuff sprinkled in. The name “sadism” entered the language because he was the first person to write torture porn as porn and not pretending it was some kind of moral lesson, but there’s no connection to any sexual subculture, since he wasn’t even an influential libertine thinker.

Anyone talking about BDSM in this thread has no idea what they’re talking about.

 

[Troyer IV]

Try justifying sex with kids today. The ramp it up with genuine willingness to lynch

Well... it was considered an "upset" when a Republican senatorial candidate (accused of pedophilia) lost to a Democrat last month. So... under the right circumstances, it's clear that the "Conservative Right" can hang up their morality when they need to.