Wi: Mary Stuart had a daughter, or miscarried?

The thread about Mary Stuart managing to escape to France was interesting to read, and sveral other Wis about her have been too. I have another major WI about the ill fated Queen which would have some pretty overarching effects.

Firstly, WI Mary Stuart in 1566 gave birth not to a boy who would become James VI, but instead a girl, also named Mary in honor of her grandmother and also her mother. Assuming history runs it's same course (the sex of the child is NOT enough to keep Mary from making major mistakes), Mary still ends up deposed.

Is the little Princess proclaimed Queen Mary II, or is the possible the nobility, relunctant to see another woman as Queen, even if a child and properly brought up Protestant that the Scottish rebel Lords elect Moray as their king> Or is a second Queen really not that big a of deal? Especially one who will be reared and raised in Scotland, and not end up a virtual foreigner like Mary, Queen Scots seemed to them.

If the little girl is kept made Queen, what happens when she comes of age? Is she allowed to begin her personal rule as James I? Or are there more restrictions in place because she is a woman, with fears of yet another dysfunctional petticoat government? Or is she properly raised and educated, perhaps even as a boy would be, so she can properly rule and reign, sort of Scotland's own Elizabeth?

There's also Elizabeth. She's probably still as unwilling as OTL to ever name an heir. Does she view this younger queen as a threat, or perhaps see herself as a surrogate mother in place of her real mother, imprisoned in England, offering her advice on how to deal with difficult decisions, ect. When Elizabeth dies, does the council act much as it did IOTL, and send forth for Mary II, or would there be more division within the council of who should succeed Elizabeth?

Next, marriage. Who would Mary II marry? Unlike her mother, I don't see her having free reign over this, and her Uncle Moray (or any other Regent) as well as the council having a large say. They would avoid any Scotsman IMO, as to avoid raising one of their own above the rest, or any foreign prince connected to a powerful state. A minor German Prince seems likely, or a Prince of Sweden or Denmark, or perhaps even a son of the Prince of Orange. Any marriage is probably subject to Elizabeth's approval too, with the council seeking a match that won't upset her. This child's only cousin would be Arabella Stuart, the child of Darnley's brother and Elizabeth Cavendish. Charles Stuart was also in disfavor with the Queen over his marriage, so even if Arabella is born a boy, Elizabeth would not be supportive of such a marriage as once again it'd be reaffirming the English blood in Mary, Queen of Scots blooodline and her position as a potential successor. Unlike OTL, the marriage contract probably has numerous stipulations to keep her husband from playing any major role in government, especially if she is raised to be able to govern herself. Definitely no joint reign, and I don't see this Prince crowned as King of Scots, at least not right off the bat. If he proves himself competent in matters of government and is an asset to the Queen? Then certainly.


Another possibility is no birth at all. The ordeal of David Rizzio's murder was quite traumatic, and the instigators held Mary prisoner within her own palace for a short time, and there are accounts of either Darnley or one of the men who carried out the assassination putting a gun on the Queen, pointing it at her stomach. What if all of this stress causes the Queen an even greater amount of stress? Bleeding is observed and essentially she goes into labor early, delivering a stillborn child, as at six months the pregnancy is not viable. This leaves Mary childless, and sours her relationship with Darnley further. Again, I doubt this butterflies her actions, and in this situation may make her even more determined to end the marriage. Either way, Darnley is still murdered, Mary marries Bothwell, and is deposed.

The issue here is Mary's successor, I'm not clear on who would succeed her. The Darnley line still exists in the form of Matthew Stuart and his son Charles, but there is also Esmé Stewart, son of John, the Lord of Aubigny. Neither seem good choices; Aubigny was Catholic, too, while the Darnleys seemed to do whatever suited them and saved their heads. There is also another, older, Stuart of the Darnley branch, that of Robert, who was form time a Scottish Churchman, although he was married IOTL in 1579, although they divorced in 1581 and seem to have had no issue. Would Moray's party even follow the succession in 1566 if the Queen makes rash decisions? They might delay deposing her, instead having her imprisoned much as IOTL, but Moray effectively reigning in her name, but there is still the issue of her possibly escaping, and the sticky issue there is no direct heir of her body readily available to be proclaimed in her place.
 
Another point to make if Mary miscarries- the Duke of Hamilton has a pretty good claim to the throne in this situation.
 
Another point to make if Mary miscarries- the Duke of Hamilton has a pretty good claim to the throne in this situation.

Do you mean the Earl of Arran? The Ducal peerage wasn't created until the 17th century IIRC. He would also make a very viable choice, although the Earl's eldest son (if we're talking of the second Earl, who died in 1572) was declared insane around 1580. In the early 1560s his father was already having issues with him, but he had a second son, John, who was fine and who was made Marquess of Hamilton in 1599 by James VI, and he inherited his elder brother's titles in 1609, and he had issue as well.

The Hamilton's are a very good choice that I overlooked; the 1st Earl of Arran was James IV's first cousin, so the royal blood is there.
 
In a no-child scenario, the major candidates are the Earl of Arran (senior cognatic descendant of the House of Stuart), the Earl of Lennox (senior male-line descendant of the pre-royal House of Stuart), and the Earl of Moray (the most politically prominant (and oldest, I think) of the acknowledged bastard sons of James V). Each has a defensible claim to the succession under Scottish precedent (Arran by male-preference primogeniture, Lennox by salic or semi-salic, and Moray by proximity of blood), and it comes down to who has the best political position when the succession occurs.

Assuming minimal butterflies, if Lord Darnley is still assassinated and Mary still remarries to Bothwell too quickly, the Earl of Moray will probably still rebel and still succeed in overthrowing Mary, but he'd be pressing his own claim a King rather than as regent for the infant James. If this is butterflied away, the succession is wide open and depends on the butterflies. Moray probably still has a fairly strong positions, but Arran is in the mix as well.
 
Do you mean the Earl of Arran? The Ducal peerage wasn't created until the 17th century IIRC. He would also make a very viable choice, although the Earl's eldest son (if we're talking of the second Earl, who died in 1572) was declared insane around 1580. In the early 1560s his father was already having issues with him, but he had a second son, John, who was fine and who was made Marquess of Hamilton in 1599 by James VI, and he inherited his elder brother's titles in 1609, and he had issue as well.

The Hamilton's are a very good choice that I overlooked; the 1st Earl of Arran was James IV's first cousin, so the royal blood is there.

Ah, wasn't aware about the semantics around the Ducal title.

In any case, given what happened OTL, I think it's perhaps reasonable to assume that Arran would be representative of the pro-French camp, Moray of the pro-English camp and Lennox would be something of a wildcard in terms of where his preferences leaned?
 
In any case, given what happened OTL, I think it's perhaps reasonable to assume that Arran would be representative of the pro-French camp, Moray of the pro-English camp and Lennox would be something of a wildcard in terms of where his preferences leaned?

James Stuart, 1st Earl of Moray was the leader of the Protestant faction and received quite a bit of tacit support from Elizabeth's government. I don't know how pro-English he was by temperment, but I'd expect him to be fairly pro-English out of pragmatism.

I did a little poking around about the Earl of Lennox at the time just now. Matthew Stuart, 4th Earl of Lennox was the father of Lord Darnley, so I'd expect him to align fairly closely with Mary so long as she's married to his son, and I'd expect her to favor him as successor if Darnley's murder is butterflied away. OTL, he believed Mary responsible for Darnley's murder and supported Moray's rebellion. I believe he and his family were Catholic at this time (his successors would convert to Protestantism some time later IOTL), but fairly pragmatic about it. So yes, wild card seems to fit.

The Arrans were fairly solid Catholics, and do indeed seem to be pretty favorable to the French. James Hamilton, 3rd Earl of Arran, appears to have been repeatedly as suitor for Mary of Guise (Mary Queen of Scot's French mother).
 
Ah, wasn't aware about the semantics around the Ducal title.

In any case, given what happened OTL, I think it's perhaps reasonable to assume that Arran would be representative of the pro-French camp, Moray of the pro-English camp and Lennox would be something of a wildcard in terms of where his preferences leaned?

Yeah, I was aware of the Hamilton family but I didn't realize they were raised to a ducal title until late in the 17th century.

Anyways, yes, what you put out seems quite right. Arran would definitely be pro-French; indeed, he actually held a French ducal title until he 1575. The Hamiltons could be opportunistic though, especially in regards to their religion, but what you've laid out sounds right. It sounds like the perfect storm for a War of the Roses type situation in Scotland...
 
Yeah, I was aware of the Hamilton family but I didn't realize they were raised to a ducal title until late in the 17th century.

Anyways, yes, what you put out seems quite right. Arran would definitely be pro-French; indeed, he actually held a French ducal title until he 1575. The Hamiltons could be opportunistic though, especially in regards to their religion, but what you've laid out sounds right. It sounds like the perfect storm for a War of the Roses type situation in Scotland...

Yeah, I did a map roughly based on the idea a while back, but as I tended not to put as much research into things back then, assumed that it's likely to be somewhat incorrect.
 
Well there was civil war after Mary's deposition but Moray managed to exert some control and take control (with English support) - i doubt given his record and the opportunities he had that he would move to depose the infant Queen in his own favour.
Given the numerous times Scotland had experienced a child monarch most of the nobility found it to their advantage - a weak crown and a dominant nobility is the story of Scotland before the the 17th century.

Arran had switched sides on numerous occassions - initially he was pro-English during the first part of the rough wooing and supported Mary's marriage to Edward Prince of Wales part of the deal might have been a match between his eldest son and Elizabeth.
He was later bought off by the French and sided with Marie of Guise.
During the 1550s he sided on and off with her and then the Lords of the Congregation - changing his religion frequently as well.
In the late 1550s he managed to get the Scots Parliament to support the idea of a match between his son and the now Queen Elizabeth though he was also keen to marry said son to Mary after she was widowed and returned.
He fell out with the Queen after the Darnley marriage but did offer support at the time of her deposition.

He had been regent of Scotland for many years was widely recognized as next in line to the throne if Mary were to die without issue.

If Mary is deposed as in OTL and the child is a girl instead of a boy - then he will no doubt try and wrest control from Moray and certainly wouldn't rule out him trying to ensure a match between the infant Queen and one of his sons.

Regarding Lennox (who was briefly regent for his grandson after Moray and until his own murder) - largely brought up in exile in England had also switched sides - eventually marrying Margaret Douglas and settling in England. Like his wife he was extremely ambitious and although nominally catholic wasn't particularly fixed in his faith by some accounts. After his son's murder he was determined to get justice and was a major critic of Mary.
He consistantly refused to acknowledge the Hamilton claim (though both their claims came through Mary Countess of Arran (dau of James II) - Lennox countered Arran's father's marriage's were invalid and therefore he had the better claim.

Lennox is almost certainly going to try and take control of his granddaughter at some point in the late 60s.

It would suit Elizabeth and her council that the child remains Queen so English support (as in OTL) will despite Elizabeth's misgivings about the Scots actions in deposing their monarch is most likely to fall to first Moray and then Lennox as regents - Elizabeth likely keeping Lennox's wife in England as she did in OTL to ensure his 'good' behaviour'.
 
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