WI: Henry Ford accepted Sun Yat Sen's proposal

[A Piece of History]

In 1924, Sun Yat Sen sent a letter to Henry Ford in which he invited the industrialist to visit southern China in an attempt to encourage him to set up a automobile industry in the country. But Ford turned him down.

But what if Henry Ford didn't reject Sun Yat Sen's proposals and he set up a automobile industry either in the areas controlled by the Nationalists before the 1928 Northern Expedition, or he sets up such a industry after the Northern Expedition?

After Nearly 90 Years, Ford Wants China to Give It a Second Chance (Published 2013)

As it prepared a bid to supply taxicabs to Hong Kong, Ford Motor Company released correspondence in which China’s first president invited Henry Ford to China.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Would help if Ford wasn’t a massive racist

 

[Cuirassier]

Would help if Ford wasn’t a massive racist

Ford was a lot of things, one of them was a businessman.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Ford was a lot of things, one of them was a businessman.

It would appear I lumped his antisemitism in with general racism. I apologise.

Going by wiki at least, it would seem that Ford was less racist than many of his peers and was an internationalist in regards to trade (although with a keen interest in making America independent from foreign dependence) with an interest in the benefits of trade in regards to international relations.

Maybe he saw Nationalist China as too small or risky a market? In '24 you had the Second Zhili–Fengtian War - a conflict for control of Beijing ended by the October Beijing Coup, where the pro-Western Zhili Clique were defeated. In the same year you had the Canton Merchants' Corps Uprising, defeated by Government forces. January '24 saw the Nationalists, after their first national conference, adopt the policies including "Unite with Russia" and "Accept Communism". Not Ford's cup of tea, I'd imagine.

 

[Demon_Hunter]

Ford was also a pacifist. He didn't even want to put FMC's massive industry behind the US war effort after Pearl Harbor. That was arranged behind his back by his son Edsel. So it's most likely he didn't want to construct industry that could be repurposed in a country still fighting a civil war.

 

[Johnrankins]

Ford was also a pacifist. He didn't even want to put FMC's massive industry behind the US war effort after Pearl Harbor. That was arranged behind his back by his son Edsel. So it's most likely he didn't want to construct industry that could be repurposed in a country still fighting a civil war.

He also didn't have much of a choice. FMC was a public company by then and I am not sure he even had controlling interest of the company, not that it matters much as shareholders have rights and Ford had fiduciary responsibilities. The government basically banned the new civilian auto market and so there was no one to sell to except the government. The shareholders could have sued if he strongly tried to block it and they would have won, particularly in time of war. Outside of that the government could have simply used eminent domain to grab the company if need be.

 

[Father Maryland]

Would help if Ford wasn’t a massive racist

There are plenty of non racist logical reasons to turn down the proposal.

1) The political instability and violence China was cursed with at the time.
2) The almost complete lack of the infrastructure needed for any automobile industry in China at the time.
3) The lack of any real substantial domestic customer base in China at the time. The vast majority of Chinese were far too poor to even dream of owning a car. In European countries that were far richer, more developed, and had far better infrastructure the majority of citizens couldn't afford a personal car. China was far poorer per capita so even with the larger population the customer base is tiny.
4) The almost complete lack of a modern road network in China.
5) Fords Pacifism. The largest market for motor vehicles in China at the time will be armored cars and trucks to carry warlords troops.
6) The lack of a trained educated workforce.
7) Tariffs.
8) The simple fact that thanks to economy of scale, the vastly better infrastructure, better educated work force, and the worlds largest auto customer base it was just cheaper to build them in the US. Ford did build foreign subsidiaries around that time or in the near future but those were also largely in richer more developed countries.
9) Incredible corruption making any large effort difficult and more costly then normal.

Frankly Ford would have to be insane to try and launch any large scale effort at building a auto industry in China at the time. Ford was a complete bastard in many ways but he wasn't a lunatic.

China needed real stability much earlier for their to be any hope of a real domestic auto industry at the time.

 

[Major Major]

He also didn't have much of a choice. FMC was a public company by then and I am not sure he even had controlling interest of the company, not that it matters much as shareholders have rights and Ford had fiduciary responsibilities. The government basically banned the new civilian auto market and so there was no one to sell to except the government. The shareholders could have sued if he strongly tried to block it and they would have won, particularly in time of war. Outside of that the government could have simply used eminent domain to grab the company if need be.

In fact there were then three (3) stockholders in FMC:
1) Henry Ford
2) Clara Bryant Ford, his wife
3) Edsel Ford, their son

The company didn't become more widely held until after Henry died. Even then, the Ford family kept control by issuing two different classes of stock, of which they held the voting stock. Today, there are some complaints because large blocks of the stock are still held by members of the Ford family.

 

[marathag]

Would help if Ford wasn’t a massive racist

Which is why he built a plant in Japan and Turkey, right?

 

[marathag]

5) Fords Pacifism. The largest market for motor vehicles in China at the time will be armored cars and trucks to carry warlords troops.

M1918 Ford 3 ton Tank

15 built before end of war from a 15,000 Contract

Personal Beliefs didn't stand in the way of making money at times.

If anything, Henry hated the British more than the Soviets, since they gave him a better deal

 

[Johnrankins]

In fact there were then three (3) stockholders in FMC:
1) Henry Ford
2) Clara Bryant Ford, his wife
3) Edsel Ford, their son

The company didn't become more widely held until after Henry died. Even then, the Ford family kept control by issuing two different classes of stock, of which they held the voting stock. Today, there are some complaints because large blocks of the stock are still held by members of the Ford family.

I didn't know that, that was and is unusual. That said it doesn't stop the government from using eminent domain nor stop Ford from having to sell the company because it isn't taking in money as it has no customers if it doesn't sell to the government.

 

[dmg86]

In ww2 the goverment nearly took over ford due to Henry Ford's increasingly poor health and poor management.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Being asked to invest in pre-Northern Expedition China would be like someone today asking you to invest in Syria. Even if you trust your would be business partners you can't trust that they won't be blown to smithereens by the end of the week.

 

[jlckansas]

I can see Ford doing it, Standard Oil was still in China at this time. The Fords understood business and knew if SO were still there than they could be in China. The Nationalist were based out of Canton at this time and with its position as a port city and close to Hong Kong it would be very easy to protect it with troops from the Philippines. Also remember that Sun Yat Sen’s Wife was one of the Soong sisters and everything they brought to the table with their connections to the US. You also had the strong China Lobby with the idea of trade with China being a priority.

 

[Intosh]

Would help if Ford wasn’t a massive racist

A great percentage of our ancestors were racist and antisemitic. It was often a normal thing at this time. To fear the others, the unknow.

In 1924, there is still plenty of european regions where owning a car was still a dream. My grand-father was the first or one of the first in his town, a town of 59 or 60 thousands people, to have a car, in the mid of 30's. Even if this part of Europe was still very backward in 1924, it was still probably more modern than 1924 China.

So no automobile factory in a country as China where no market for cars exist.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

There are plenty of non racist logical reasons to turn down the proposal.

Which is why he built a plant in Japan and Turkey, right?

A great percentage of our ancestors were racist and antisemitic. It was often a normal thing at this time. To fear the others, the unknown.

I've already retracted the assertions Ford was a racist. It seems he was 'just' a massive antisemite

 

[Pelranius]

Honestly, a FMC factory starting production in the mid 1920s would probably have an annual output of not more than the low five figures, due to limits on demand.

That could possibly double in a decades time, but even with local suppliers, that's not going to make very much of an impact on a country the size of China.

Most that would militarily change would be that the NRA has some more armored cars in 1937.

 

[marathag]

Honestly, a FMC factory starting production in the mid 1920s would probably have an annual output of not more than the low five figures, due to limits on demand.

That could possibly double in a decades time, but even with local suppliers, that's not going to make very much of an impact on a country the size of China.

Most that would militarily change would be that the NRA has some more armored cars in 1937.

Model T isn't a horrible choice for China
Doesn't need paved roads, trails are fine
few parts
can run off low quality hydrocarbon fuel or alcohol
Blacksmiths can fix things most owner can't handle themselves
Tooling more than paid off

 

[Intosh]

I've already retracted the assertions Ford was a racist. It seems he was 'just' a massive antisemite

And what it contribute to the discussion about a possible Ford factory in China that Henry Ford was a massive antisemite ?

If in all discussions about 1890-1910 France, I will have to say that there is around 50% of chance that the person I speaking about is an antisemite. It will be not very interesting.

Because of the Dreyfus Affair, we can say that France was divided around 50/50 between antisemite people and people who don't consider to be a jew being a such bad thing.

About antisemitism, racism and homophobia and others nasty phobia and hate of others, we can assume that all people living before the last 50 years had these bad traits. And the people who weren't antisemit, racist, and homophobe are only exceptions.

Napoleon, for exemple, can be considered as such an exception because he was philosemite, he wasn't racist as proved by the Mamelukes bodyguards and servants he have, and the fact they served in the elite corps of the Imperial Guard, and because several of his close councillors were open gay men, he doesn't seems homophobic.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

And what it contribute to the discussion about a possible Ford factory in China that Henry Ford was a massive antisemite ?

Nothing.

I originally said Ford was a racist. People got offended by said assertion and I looked it up to prove my point. I then realised I was wrong and withdrew the statement he was a racist by saying he was ‘just’ an antisemite. The post also included points as to why Ford may have considered a plant in China a bad idea in 1924. These points were ignored and the defence of the character of a man who published The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was continued.

I can’t be bothered to debate why a shitheel was a shitheel or even if a shitheel is a shitheel by modern, contemporary or imagined standards, so I’m out.