WI: Great Awakening spreads to Ireland in 1700s

[Socrates]

Ireland lies between America and Britain geographically. In the 18th Century, both of these countries had major religious movements. Britain underwent the Methodist revival, where large chunks of the Celtic fringe (especially Cornwall and Wales) embraced a spiritual renewal movement that eventually left the Anglican church. In America, the Great Awakening occurred at the same time -- a major evangelical movement focused on emotional church services.

So what if a few charismatic preachers went to Ireland and there was a John Wesley or two that created devoted followings? It could be similar to the evangelical movements in Latin America in the late 20th Century, with 20-30% of the population in places like Brazil abandoning the Catholic Church and becoming born again Protestants. What would that do to the politics of Ireland in the 1800s and 1900s?

 

[Metempsychosis]

It would make a very different Irish culture, and a very different dynamic between Ireland and Britain.

Like, the evangelical movements in Latin America had a very different context vis a vis the modernizing Catholic church, considering the Church in those regions was long seen as a tool of control by a longstanding anticlerical movement in Latin America. The fact is, to most Irishmen, England and its heretical church was the enemy that had raped and pillaged their nation for centuries, and the Church was the one thing these heretics could not take from them.

That said, I remember a TL on this site - Now Blooms the Tudor Rose - where a radical sect of Protestantism rises in Ireland during the Protestant Reformation, one supported by an Irish high king rising against the Englishmen. Maybe something like that would affect the Irish dynamic enough to allow the Great Awakening to really spread to Ireland.

 

[Math]

It would make a very different Irish culture, and a very different dynamic between Ireland and Britain.

Like, the evangelical movements in Latin America had a very different context vis a vis the modernizing Catholic church, considering the Church in those regions was long seen as a tool of control by a longstanding anticlerical movement in Latin America. The fact is, to most Irishmen, England and its heretical church was the enemy that had raped and pillaged their nation for centuries, and the Church was the one thing these heretics could not take from them.

That said, I remember a TL on this site - Now Blooms the Tudor Rose - where a radical sect of Protestantism rises in Ireland during the Protestant Reformation, one supported by an Irish high king rising against the Englishmen. Maybe something like that would affect the Irish dynamic enough to allow the Great Awakening to really spread to Ireland.

I agree, for example in Brazil in the second half of the 20th century post vatican second, the church had a very submissive posture, shall we say, and was not very combative against the rise of Protestantism, About anti-clericalism, well it is also true that there is a long-standing movement in Latin America mainly in the elites that were against the clergy of the church, one of the most anti-clerical places was the Uruguay, From experience, my mother is Protestant and was raised Protestant, the only church I attended was an evangelical one When I was a kid, But I won't anymore, My father is a non-practicing Catholic and is anti-clerical.

I think Ireland would not go because the clergy would not let it, a big What if for me is what would happen religiously in Brazil if the Catholic Church here had fought the growth of the protestantism Instead of the priests being "hidden" within the parish, I've seen several pastors attack the Catholic church Both outside and inside the cults, but I saw few priests attack evangelical churches and those who did were seen negatively by the church as, let's say, reactionary, radicals something like that.

 

[dcharles]

It would make a very different Irish culture, and a very different dynamic between Ireland and Britain.

Like, the evangelical movements in Latin America had a very different context vis a vis the modernizing Catholic church, considering the Church in those regions was long seen as a tool of control by a longstanding anticlerical movement in Latin America. The fact is, to most Irishmen, England and its heretical church was the enemy that had raped and pillaged their nation for centuries, and the Church was the one thing these heretics could not take from them.

That said, I remember a TL on this site - Now Blooms the Tudor Rose - where a radical sect of Protestantism rises in Ireland during the Protestant Reformation, one supported by an Irish high king rising against the Englishmen. Maybe something like that would affect the Irish dynamic enough to allow the Great Awakening to really spread to Ireland.

The Diggers/Levellers preceded Wesley by about 80 years. Maybe a few of them manage to hang out in Ireland?

Could be interesting.

 

[DJ03]

the fact the wiki page for the reformation in Ireland is a list of the policies of various royals is rather telling of how receptive to protestantism the irish populace were
and reading about said policies gives the feeling that most kings didn't care much about converting the irish: first printing press established in 1551 to publish the Book of Common Prayer in english (gaelic version only in 1606), gaelic printing didn't start until 1571 and publication of a gaelic Bible only started w/ the New Testament in 1603, while the gaelic OT was published only from 1680.
this is not the basis for an homegrown protestant movement, there needs to be a change in attitude

The Diggers/Levellers preceded Wesley by about 80 years. Maybe a few of them manage to hang out in Ireland?

they'd be english protestants moving in w/ strength of arms and state backing in the Commonwealth years: the irish people would have every reason to be unreceptive to their preaching

I suggest a different take: why not a reform movement born within the catholic church?
some jansenists fleeing french intolerance in the early XVIII century could relocate to Ireland and enjoy some success as their position on salvation works as a "bridge" for those who wish to convert to anglicanism to gain socio-economic advantages while retaining their catholic faith in secret, while the moral rigor of jansenist priests is appreciated by the poorest members of society.
if the original exiles are from the Port-Royale community, they can try to form monastic communities in abandoned monastic houses (this seems to have happened w/ the protection of sympathetic landlords iotl) which could attract the attention (and devotion) of commoners by their virtue of living a poor life close to evangelical principles

if jansenists embrace the use of gaelic, by the time the I Great Awakening kicks in, they have a chance at converting much of the isle

 

[Neoteros]

A revival of Celtic Church practices would be neat, too - Ireland would not abandon Catholicism at all, but (re-)adopting a local form of Catholicism would be somewhat of a nationalistic statement, especially if such a revival movement emphasizes monasticism and poverty, in contrast with the opulence of the Church of the 18th century; Franciscanism on a national scale, more or less.

 

[dcharles]

they'd be english protestants moving in w/ strength of arms and state backing in the Commonwealth years:

That's not really what I meant. Notice I said "hide out." Authority figures did not like the Diggers or the Levellers. They made the Quakers look like straight-laced conservatives.

 

[DJ03]

That's not really what I meant. Notice I said "hide out." Authority figures did not like the Diggers or the Levellers. They made the Quakers look like straight-laced conservatives.

they came to Ireland w/ the cromwellian army iotl, so no reason for the actual peasants there to like them

 

[dcharles]

they came to Ireland w/ the cromwellian army iotl, so no reason for the actual peasants there to like them

I'm not sure where communication is breaking down here, or really how I can rephrase it.

But individual religionists participating in a politically unrelated army is not what I meant when I said "maybe a few could manage to hide out."

 

[DJ03]

I'm not sure where communication is breaking down here, or really how I can rephrase it.

But individual religionists participating in a politically unrelated army is not what I meant when I said "maybe a few could manage to hide out."

ok, I thought you suggested they could convert a sizable portion of the isle
my bad, srry

 

[dcharles]

ok, I thought you suggested they could convert a sizable portion of the isle
my bad, srry

No, just that a group of them manage to hang out and survive, thereby providing a cultural example for non-oppressive Protestantism in Ireland, which allows the Great Awakening to have some fertile soil in the Emerald Isle a century later.

 

[DJ03]

No, just that a group of them manage to hang out and survive, thereby providing a cultural example for non-oppressive Protestantism in Ireland, which allows the Great Awakening to have some fertile soil in the Emerald Isle a century later.

I suggest the palatines would be a better starting point, then, as they did settle Ireland iotl

 

[funnyhat]

For this to succeed, you probably need a very different English policy toward Ireland, leaving its upper class in place and sending far fewer settlers. If the upper class feels secure under English rule it may be more open to adopting its religious trends, which may then filter down in society.

I think it is much harder for it to succeed in a situation like OTL where British settlers took over most of the island's land and so Protestantism became viewed as the religion of the occupier.

 

[Socrates]

For this to succeed, you probably need a very different English policy toward Ireland, leaving its upper class in place and sending far fewer settlers. If the upper class feels secure under English rule it may be more open to adopting its religious trends, which may then filter down in society.

I think it is much harder for it to succeed in a situation like OTL where British settlers took over most of the island's land and so Protestantism became viewed as the religion of the occupier.

Anglicanism was the religion of the occupier. And in the late 1700s, the Catholic elite was coming to accept the coming Union. In many ways the Presbyterians were the most radical sect, leading the 1798 rebellion for instance.

 

[mrmandias]

I agree with everyone else that the POD is unlikely to work.

But instead of fighting it or proposing alternate PODs, lets try to work with it.

First, this probably works better if Methodism isn't seen as a subset of Anglicanism. So maybe your Methodist preachers in Ireland break off from the Anglicans sooner than the denomination as a whole does. In fact, maybe that's why they go to Ireland, because they are having a controversy with the Anglican Methodists and its convenient to them to make tracks.

Despite the obstacles, Methodism does have some conversion potential as demonstrated by OTL. It offers a more direct, experiential religion than the more established sects of the day and it offers a better format for focusing on personal conduct, which also appealed to many.

OTL Methodism appealed most of all to the respectable poor and the diligent lower middle class types. For that reason, and because of the sociology of religious conversion generally, its more likely to succeed in cities and in newly moved populations. So one question to consider is where are the internal migrations happening in Ireland? Where is trade developing? Where is the urban growth happening? That's where the movement is likely to take a foothold. Second, are there rural areas or even urban areas that are underserved by priests and the existing Catholic organization? Once the foothold is in place, that is where Methodist circuit riders will next make inroads (as on the frontier in OTL America).

Next, again based on trends in the sociology of religion, this Irish Methodism will work best if it is perceived as more or less neutral to existing "frozen" religious divides. It doesn't mean that formally scholars would consider it to be neither Catholic nor Protestant. It just means that on the ground people have to experience it as neither "old backwards" Catholicism nor "hateful oppressive foreign" Presbyterianism/Anglicanism. At minimum this means the Irish Methodists are going to have to have a somewhat different approach to Catholicism than the standard English/Scottish one of denouncing the Pope every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It doesn't mean they will be pro-Catholic, it just means that they won't focus on that stuff and will see it as a distraction from the true inner work of salvation. Quite possibly this Irish Methodism will do very well in the north also. Its also possible, even likely, that the Catholic elites would mostly ignore a movement like that for awhile because it would mostly be attracting the lower orders who probably weren't actively religious anyway before and because the movement doesn't seem to be targeted at them.

 

[mrmandias]

Now lets talk about the likely effects. One that I think is super interesting is that the Catholic church in Ireland would eventually probably respond with their own version of the Great Awakening. It wouldn't be an official top down thing at first. It would be a movement among some young priests or monastics, maybe with a bishop involved. As it spread it would create conflict internally. But if the conflict were resolved, you could end up with a really worked out and tested Catholic model that is different from and earlier than OTL.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Now lets talk about the likely effects. One that I think is super interesting is that the Catholic church in Ireland would eventually probably respond with their own version of the Great Awakening. It wouldn't be an official top down thing at first. It would be a movement among some young priests or monastics, maybe with a bishop involved. As it spread it would create conflict internally. But if the conflict were resolved, you could end up with a really worked out and tested Catholic model that is different from and earlier than OTL.

Catholic Charismatics are a thing, so yeah, that could work.

 

[Socrates]

I agree with everyone else that the POD is unlikely to work.

But instead of fighting it or proposing alternate PODs, lets try to work with it.

First, this probably works better if Methodism isn't seen as a subset of Anglicanism. So maybe your Methodist preachers in Ireland break off from the Anglicans sooner than the denomination as a whole does. In fact, maybe that's why they go to Ireland, because they are having a controversy with the Anglican Methodists and its convenient to them to make tracks.

Despite the obstacles, Methodism does have some conversion potential as demonstrated by OTL. It offers a more direct, experiential religion than the more established sects of the day and it offers a better format for focusing on personal conduct, which also appealed to many.

OTL Methodism appealed most of all to the respectable poor and the diligent lower middle class types. For that reason, and because of the sociology of religious conversion generally, its more likely to succeed in cities and in newly moved populations. So one question to consider is where are the internal migrations happening in Ireland? Where is trade developing? Where is the urban growth happening? That's where the movement is likely to take a foothold. Second, are there rural areas or even urban areas that are underserved by priests and the existing Catholic organization? Once the foothold is in place, that is where Methodist circuit riders will next make inroads (as on the frontier in OTL America).

Next, again based on trends in the sociology of religion, this Irish Methodism will work best if it is perceived as more or less neutral to existing "frozen" religious divides. It doesn't mean that formally scholars would consider it to be neither Catholic nor Protestant. It just means that on the ground people have to experience it as neither "old backwards" Catholicism nor "hateful oppressive foreign" Presbyterianism/Anglicanism. At minimum this means the Irish Methodists are going to have to have a somewhat different approach to Catholicism than the standard English/Scottish one of denouncing the Pope every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It doesn't mean they will be pro-Catholic, it just means that they won't focus on that stuff and will see it as a distraction from the true inner work of salvation. Quite possibly this Irish Methodism will do very well in the north also. Its also possible, even likely, that the Catholic elites would mostly ignore a movement like that for awhile because it would mostly be attracting the lower orders who probably weren't actively religious anyway before and because the movement doesn't seem to be targeted at them.

I think the best approach to get the type of denomination you describe is not Methodism but Baptism, one that is not linked at all to the CoE.

Also Presbyterianism wasn't a hateful foreign oppressor. The presbyterians were as discriminated against as the Catholics until after 1798.

 

[mrmandias]

I think the best approach to get the type of denomination you describe is not Methodism but Baptism, one that is not linked at all to the CoE.

Also Presbyterianism wasn't a hateful foreign oppressor. The presbyterians were as discriminated against as the Catholics until after 1798.

True, but also definitely on the Other Team

 

[vgh...]

Could this bridge the gap between Presbyterian dissenters and the native Irish? Both are oppressed under the protestant ascendancy as @Socrates said, and you did have some cooperation against the dominant protestant (established Anglican) ascendancy in real life with the United Irishmen. Obviously the Anglo-Irish are still going to have to find a way to keep the Native Irish majority out of power so they can be their landlords, keep them from carrying weapons etc, but won't eroding the religious barrier between Scotch-Irish dissenters and native Irish through an Irish protestant sect make their job a whole lot harder? Difficult to draw a line and still include more people into your order now. Is a multidenominational peaceful Ireland possible once that Anglo-Irish order cracks?