WI: Eric of Pomerania succeeds in getting Bogislav nominated as his heir

[30PrincesAndAKing]

In OTL, the childless Kalmar Union king Eric of Pomerania tried unsuccessfully for years to get his paternal first cousin (Bogislav IX, duke of Pomerania) to be named his universal heir in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. This was stymied when the Danish estates rejected Bogislav in 1436 and brought in Eric's nephew Christopher of Bavaria to be the heir two years later.

Is there any chance that Eric is somehow successful in getting Bogislav nominated as heir in 1436? Perhaps in the event that Eric and/or Bogislav grant heavy concessions to the Danish and Swedish nobility? (or maybe Eric actually manages to win a battle or something and in the euphoria afterwards manages to make some diplomatic victories too).

Some interesting questions that could arise from this:

1) Does Bogislav succeed Eric? IOTL Bogislav died in 1446, apparently after a long illness, predeceasing Eric, and Eric had been deposed in 1439 anyway; does this stay the same? If Bogislav becomes Kalmar Union king, does he change his name? Eric's baptismal name had also been Bogislav also but his adoptive mother Margaret changed it to Eric.

2) Does this affect the marital prospects of Bogislav's daughter(s)? Bogislav had no male heirs and thus his daughters are now potential heiresses to the Scandinavian kingdoms. For reference, his eldest daughter Sophie was born around 1434 and ended up marrying a Pomeranian cousin in 1451. This marriage appears to have been arranged by Eric *after* his deposition from the union crowns.

3) What happens to Christopher of Bavaria? Does he take disinheritance lightly, or is he more concerned with affairs in the Palatinate or his father-in-law's estates to really care about the Scandinavian succession?

Now, a POD earlier on is also possible; Eric appears to have been gunning for Bogislav to succeed him as early as 1416 or 1417. This is before Bogislav's own marriage, so a POD here affects his marital prospects also. Apparently at this time, Eric was trying to get Bogislav married to a daughter of the Polish King Wladyslaw Jagiello (given Jagiello's anemic reproductive ability, this daughter has to be Hedwig Jagiellon (b. 1408), which puts her at the exactly the same age as Bogislav (who was born somewhere between 1407-1410).

Jagiello didn't go for the match IOTL, perhaps because Bogislav's future was far from secure, but in any case Bogislav didn't marry until *after* Hedwig was dead anyway, so perhaps Eric and/or Bogislav were still holding out hope for the match. IOTL, Hedwig died in Dec 1431 and Bogislav married Jagiello's niece Maria of Masovia (daughter of Polish royal aspirant Siemowit IV and Jagiello's sister) in June 1432. An earlier POD might change who Bogislav marries and result in different children.

I'm not an expert on this period and a lot of my interest in history is genealogical, so I hope I learn something new here lol. This is my first post so let me know if there's any details I've forgotten lol

 

[ordinarylittleme]

First I'm going to need you to offer a reason for HOW Eric succeeds...

 

[Awkwardvulture]

Well the Scandinavian Kingdoms tended to be governed by a more elective form of succession, so it's hardly impossible.

 

[Jürgen]

I don’t really see why they would recognize cousin Bogislav, he only have a weak claim through Valdemar Atterdag‘s grandfather Erik V, who was cousin Bogislavs great grandfather. It’s not the worst claim, but it’s pretty weak as long as any descendents of Atterdag exists.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

First I'm going to need you to offer a reason for HOW Eric succeeds...

lol

I admit Eric is generally pretty useless diplomatically, but at the same time, I've seen some frankly impossible premises here before, so I thought I'd give it my best shot. Perhaps with an earlier POD (Eric didn't really become a total failure until the 1430s, IIRC) Eric makes smarter decisions whilst dealing with the Holsteiners? That might require him to be smarter than he was OTL, tho. and I'd rather not change his personality.

I don’t really see why they would recognize cousin Bogislav, he only have a weak claim through Valdemar Atterdag‘s grandfather Erik V, who was cousin Bogislavs great grandfather. It’s not the worst claim, but it’s pretty weak as long as any descendents of Atterdag exists.

This is a question I've been struggling with, because while Bogislav (and later Adolf VIII of Holstein and Christian of Oldenburg after him) are distant descendants of Erik Klipping, I'm not sure how aware any of them were of the connection (beyond need for papal dispensations) nor do I know how much importance (if any) was placed upon it at the time. AFAIK Bogislav's main claim is simply that he's Eric's paternal kinsman.

Frankly, the fact a guy like Adolf of Holstein was even considered for the Danish throne in the first place (even in 1448 after the extinction of Atterdag's line) still slightly befuddles me; not only is the man a Holsteiner, but the dude is borderline antagonistic to the Danes. The only benefit he brings is the possibility of peacefully reintegrating Schleswig-Holstein into the Danish state, but even then the guy's childless and the Pinneberg line is still around so even that's not a guarantee.


To reply to both of these: what if Christopher of Bavaria dies young? Without him as an option, perhaps the Estates of Denmark feel there is simply no realistic alternative to Bogislav? OTL William of Werle died in 1436, and he was basically the only male descendant of Erik Klipping who is ahead of the Holsteiners and Bogislav but behind Eric and Christopher, so if he dies on-schedule and Christopher dies, not only is Bogislav's claim a lot stronger but alternatives are a lot thinner on the ground.

The real question is why Bogislav was considered objectionable in the first place: was it because 1) he had a poor/nonexistent blood claim; 2) because he was a 'foreigner' in the eyes of the Danes; 3) because he was Eric's choice and Eric's decisions were considered poison, or a combination of these? Because if 2) is the real issue, then perhaps Eric can bring Bogislav to Denmark or Norway early and acclimate him to Scandinavia such that when the time comes he's considered 'one of us.'

If it's 3) then I agree I don't know what could be done. I do get the sense that Eric preferred Bogislav primarily because he got to exercise Bogislav's Pomeranian regency and thus had a lot of control over him. If the Danes are afraid that Bogislav is too much a creature of Eric (who they already dislike at this point) then I have to agree that he hadn't got much of a chance short of radical alterations...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

lol

I admit Eric is generally pretty useless diplomatically, but at the same time, I've seen some frankly impossible premises here before, so I thought I'd give it my best shot. Perhaps with an earlier POD (Eric didn't really become a total failure until the 1430s, IIRC) Eric makes smarter decisions whilst dealing with the Holsteiners? That might require him to be smarter than he was OTL, tho. and I'd rather not change his personality.


This is a question I've been struggling with, because while Bogislav (and later Adolf VIII of Holstein and Christian of Oldenburg after him) are distant descendants of Erik Klipping, I'm not sure how aware any of them were of the connection (beyond need for papal dispensations) nor do I know how much importance (if any) was placed upon it at the time. AFAIK Bogislav's main claim is simply that he's Eric's paternal kinsman.

Frankly, the fact a guy like Adolf of Holstein was even considered for the Danish throne in the first place (even in 1448 after the extinction of Atterdag's line) still slightly befuddles me; not only is the man a Holsteiner, but the dude is borderline antagonistic to the Danes. The only benefit he brings is the possibility of peacefully reintegrating Schleswig-Holstein into the Danish state, but even then the guy's childless and the Pinneberg line is still around so even that's not a guarantee.


To reply to both of these: what if Christopher of Bavaria dies young? Without him as an option, perhaps the Estates of Denmark feel there is simply no realistic alternative to Bogislav? OTL William of Werle died in 1436, and he was basically the only male descendant of Erik Klipping who is ahead of the Holsteiners and Bogislav but behind Eric and Christopher, so if he dies on-schedule and Christopher dies, not only is Bogislav's claim a lot stronger but alternatives are a lot thinner on the ground.

The real question is why Bogislav was considered objectionable in the first place: was it because 1) he had a poor/nonexistent blood claim; 2) because he was a 'foreigner' in the eyes of the Danes; 3) because he was Eric's choice and Eric's decisions were considered poison, or a combination of these? Because if 2) is the real issue, then perhaps Eric can bring Bogislav to Denmark or Norway early and acclimate him to Scandinavia such that when the time comes he's considered 'one of us.'

If it's 3) then I agree I don't know what could be done. I do get the sense that Eric preferred Bogislav primarily because he got to exercise Bogislav's Pomeranian regency and thus had a lot of control over him. If the Danes are afraid that Bogislav is too much a creature of Eric (who they already dislike at this point) then I have to agree that he hadn't got much of a chance short of radical alterations...

Didn't Christopher have a sister? If, after a match between Boguslaw and Jadvyga of Poland becomes impossible, Erik matches his niece with Boguslaw, then that would put Boguslaw's wife BEHIND Christopher but AHEAD of anybody else

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Didn't Christopher have a sister? If, after a match between Boguslaw and Jadvyga of Poland becomes impossible, Erik matches his niece with Boguslaw, then that would put Boguslaw's wife BEHIND Christopher but AHEAD of anybody else

A quick glance at German!Wikipedia for Christopher's father shows there were actually seven children born of John of Neumarkt and Catherine of Pomeriania, but only Christopher (who was the youngest) survived childhood.

Hilariously, only one of these children (Margaret) was a girl (the others were boys). Margaret was born 1408, but died young. If she had survived, she would have been of age to marry Bogislav, but this was hardly the best match she could have made (unless she wants the Danish succession, that is...)

 

[Atterdag]

Is there any chance that Eric is somehow successful in getting Bogislav nominated as heir in 1436? Perhaps in the event that Eric and/or Bogislav grant heavy concessions to the Danish and Swedish nobility? (or maybe Eric actually manages to win a battle or something and in the euphoria afterwards manages to make some diplomatic victories too).

Either Eric needs to retain some of the goodwill he had at the start of his reign, not impossible at all if he manages to win the war in Schleswig or at least make it a less costly conflict. If not, then he needs his otl plan to succeed, I.e making the people he believes would support Bogislavs candidacy powerul enough that the nobility doesn’t dare to oppose it. He tried this otl, granting several fiefs to Bogislav himself, and especially giving huge parts of the realm to Philippa, probably the “new men” promoted by him would also support Bogislav as a king chosen by the old nobility would serve their interests, i.e getting newly promoted officials out of important positions. Eric’s plan of course failed because Philippa died, his loyal men were driven out of Sweden, and his cause lost all goodwill.

Maybe if Eric was the one to die in 1429 instead of Philippa? His goodwill and political legitimacy isn’t entirely spent yet and Sweden is somewhat contained by Philippa and his loyal men. As a bonus Christopher is only 13 so probably hasn’t developed the diplomatic knack that let him unite the factions of the north in otl yet.

Also if Eric is still seen as a legitimate ruler when he dies then Bogislav’s lack of blood relation to Valdemar Atterdag (he actually is though very distantly) is of less importance, as he’ll be related to Eric as his main source of legitimacy. Christopher is still a closer relative, but the gap is not so big.

If Bogislav becomes Kalmar Union king, does he change his name? Eric's baptismal name had also been Bogislav also but his adoptive mother Margaret changed it to Eric.

It was probably easier to change Eric’s name as he was only a little kid when he was adopted, but it also might be the precedent for “royal names” as opposed to birth names in Scandinavia.

3) What happens to Christopher of Bavaria? Does he take disinheritance lightly, or is he more concerned with affairs in the Palatinate or his father-in-law's estates to really care about the Scandinavian succession?

If we go with a scenario similar to my suggestion Christopher might be backed by a conservative faction of old nobility, civil war might be inevitable, or he might drop his claim and focus on Bavaria all together, he seemed pretty opportunistic in otl.

The real question is why Bogislav was considered objectionable in the first place: was it because 1) he had a poor/nonexistent blood claim; 2) because he was a 'foreigner' in the eyes of the Danes; 3) because he was Eric's choice and Eric's decisions were considered poison, or a combination of these? Because if 2) is the real issue, then perhaps Eric can bring Bogislav to Denmark or Norway early and acclimate him to Scandinavia such that when the time comes he's considered 'one of us.'

The blood claim was part of it, though Margaret had made that work in her time in Norway. As for being a foreigner, Christopher was that too, and Bogislav at least had spent some considerable time on his Danish fiefs, though that probably didn’t make him less foreign in the nobility’s eyes. There genuinely does seem to have been a lot of spite involved against Eric towards the end I think the Danish council declares something like “Eric says he is the only one capable of ruling us, but we know of another…” when electing Christopher, both that and offering the crown to Adolf might genuinely have been a bit of an f-u to Eric.

 

[GrandMaster]

there were actually seven children born of John of Neumarkt and Catherine of Pomeriania, but only Christopher (who was the youngest) survived childhood.

And not even he produced surviving heirs.

 

[Atterdag]

And not even he produced surviving heirs.

Both Christopher’s siblings surviving and C3 having some kids with Dorothea are interesting scenarios in my opinion. C3’s approach to the Kalmar Union was quite different to both Eric of Pomerania and the later Oldenburgs and would be intriguing to see play out.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Both Christopher’s siblings surviving and C3 having some kids with Dorothea are interesting scenarios in my opinion. C3’s approach to the Kalmar Union was quite different to both Eric of Pomerania and the later Oldenburgs and would be intriguing to see play out.

Speaking of approaches to the Kalmar Union, do we have enough information to get a sense of what Bogislav's approach would have been, in-keeping with your scenario where Eric dies before his goodwill runs out (which I absolutely love, BTW; I'd never figured dying would've been a good career move for Eric lol)?

It would be easy enough to assume that his policies would be similar to Eric's, considering he was raised in-part by Eric and Eric approved of him (in which case we've only kicked the underlying issues down the road another generation), but on the other hand, it would have been easy enough to assume that Eric would have continued Margaret's policies in similar circumstances, and that assumption couldn't have been further from the truth...

 

[Atterdag]

Speaking of approaches to the Kalmar Union, do we have enough information to get a sense of what Bogislav's approach would have been

I don’t think we do, except I think it’s fair to assume Bogislav would be more involved with Polish affairs, since he’d already been part of that game. Most likely he continues Eric’s style, promote new loyal men over old nobility, subvert each kingdom’s privy council in favor of the royal council, and continue to try and gain domimance In the Baltic.

on the other hand, it would have been easy enough to assume that Eric would have continued Margaret's policies in similar circumstances, and that assumption couldn't have been further from the truth...

Eric followed Margaret’s programs slavishly even when they clearly weren’t working anymore. I mean, what did he do when he had no heir? Adopt a boy named Bogislav from Pomerania! That was one of his big mistakes, he never could think outside the box Margaret had built for him. As he said himself when asked to change: “That’s not how I received the realm from lady Margaret”

 

[Atterdag]

only one of these children (Margaret) was a girl (the others were boys). Margaret was born 1408, but died young. If she had survived, she would have been of age to marry Bogislav, but this was hardly the best match she could have made (unless she wants the Danish succession, that is...)

I like the idea of Margaret surviving but Christopher dying and her marrying Bogislav.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Eric followed Margaret’s programs slavishly even when they clearly weren’t working anymore. I mean, what did he do when he had no heir? Adopt a boy named Bogislav from Pomerania! That was one of his big mistakes, he never could think outside the box Margaret had built for him. As he said himself when asked to change: “That’s not how I received the realm from lady Margaret”

Interesting... my mistake then.

I like the idea of Margaret surviving but Christopher dying and her marrying Bogislav.

Ideally, Bogislav has more reproductive success with this union, because if he has all daughters like OTL, then with all the people we've eliminated for TTL (Eric, Christopher; William of Werle) the only claimants left will be Adolf of Holstein and Christian of Oldenburg and we'll be more-or-less back where we started lol

 

[Atterdag]

Ideally, Bogislav has more reproductive success with this union, because if he has all daughters like OTL, then with all the people we've eliminated for TTL (Eric, Christopher; William of Werle) the only claimants left will be Adolf of Holstein and Christian of Oldenburg and we'll be more-or-less back where we started lol

Or, he is succeeded by one of his nephews: John V of Saxe-Lauenburg or Ulrich II of Mecklenburg-Stargard.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Or, he is succeeded by one of his nephews: John V of Saxe-Lauenburg or Ulrich II of Mecklenburg-Stargard.

I had forgotten about Bogislav's sisters...

Do they make the same marriages as OTL? They both seem pretty bog-standard so far as North German/Scandinavian marriage alliances go (what with Saxe-Lauenburg being the suzerain of Holstein; there's nothing shocking about a Mecklenburger marriage, either), so I don't see a reason why they would marry any differently, but perhaps someone is of a different opinion?

 

[Atterdag]

Do they make the same marriages as OTL?

Eric doesn't seem to have cared much about his other cousins, they married in 1429 and (probably) 1428 iotl so probably before Bogislav becomes King in any scenario.

They both seem pretty bog-standard so far as North German/Scandinavian marriage alliances go (what with Saxe-Lauenburg being the suzerain of Holstein; there's nothing shocking about a Mecklenburger marriage, either), so I don't see a reason why they would marry any differently, but perhaps someone is of a different opinion?

An Ascanian King of Denmark would be quite interesting as far as the relationship with the Schauenburgers go, it could lead to them becoming sort of "double-vassals" of the King, i.e vassals of Denmark in Schleswig and vassals of Saxe-Lauenburg/Lower Saxony in Holstein.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

An Ascanian King of Denmark would be quite interesting as far as the relationship with the Schauenburgers go, it could lead to them becoming sort of "double-vassals" of the King, i.e vassals of Denmark in Schleswig and vassals of Saxe-Lauenburg/Lower Saxony in Holstein.

An Ascanian Danish king has the potential to be a major Holstein-screw IMO. The Ascanians kept the Schauenburgers on a pretty loose leash OTL, but a Danish Ascanian has absolutely no reason to do the same.

Which makes me wonder how Adolf VIII's childless death in 1459 would play out with an Ascanian on the throne. Would Christian of Oldenburg still get Schleswig-Holstein? I see a few potential options here (tho. this list is by no means exhaustive):

1) The Pinneberg branch of the Shauenbergers is awarded Holstein while the Danish king (who by virtue of timing would probably be OTL's John V, duke of Saxe-Lauenburg) confiscates Schleswig for himself and reincorporates it back into the Danish state.
2) The Pinnebergs are awarded Holstein but Schleswig is enfeoffed to Christian of Oldenburg.
3) Christian of Oldenburg gets everything as per OTL.
4) The King of Denmark gets everything.

I have a feeling 3) isn't on the table here, since I think Christian's position as the Danish king did a lot to ensure that his succession in Schleswig-Holstein was smooth. Here, where he's not the Danish king, I don't think he's getting everything. On the other hand, I don't think 4) is all that likely either, what with two different powerful factions being disinherited. I think some compromise is going to be reached; I don't know if the 1) and 2) compromises hold water, but some kind of diplomatic settlement is required.

 

[Atterdag]

An Ascanian Danish king has the potential to be a major Holstein-screw IMO. The Ascanians kept the Schauenburgers on a pretty loose leash OTL, but a Danish Ascanian has absolutely no reason to do the same.

It's moreso that the Dukes of Saxe-Lauenburg were far weaker than their supposed "vassals" in Holstein, with the weight of Denmark behind them though, they wouldn't necessarily be.

As for Duke Adolf's death, let's assume the situation is similair to otl only with an Ascanian on the Danish throne rather than Christian of Oldenburg.

1) The Pinneberg branch of the Shauenbergers is awarded Holstein while the Danish king (who by virtue of timing would probably be OTL's John V, duke of Saxe-Lauenburg) confiscates Schleswig for himself and reincorporates it back into the Danish state.

This is the solution I've always thought would've been best for Denmark long-term, even in otl. It would've saved otl Christian I a lot of cash (meaning Sweden won't be as likely to revolt against "the bottomless purse" as they called him), it also would've clearly demarkated where Denmark ended and the HRE/Germany began, something that wouldn't be resolved for 400 years in otl, and created a less fertile breeding ground for rebellious younger brothers and cadet branches.

2) The Pinnebergs are awarded Holstein but Schleswig is enfeoffed to Christian of Oldenburg.
3) Christian of Oldenburg gets everything as per OTL.

Both unlikely unless he leads a rebellion with the Holsatian nobility and wins.

4) The King of Denmark gets everything.

I think this really depends on what we mean by "getting everything". The Holsatian nobility (who were the big landowners in Schleswig too) want two thing, they don't want their lands confiscated, and they don't want them split between two liege lords.

I could see an option 5): The King of Denmark becomes Duke of Schleswig through reversion, Otto of Pinnenberg gets the County of Holstein - but has to take an oath of allegiance to King John as Duke of Saxe-Lauenburg. This sort of works out as in otl and keeps the Holsatian nobility's land from fracturing, but Schleswig might be more easily kept as part of Denmark, while the grip on Holstein will be more loose. If the Pinnenburg line follows track then the united County of Holstein will fracture in the mid 1460's and only be reunified in the mid 16th century.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

I could see an option 5): The King of Denmark becomes Duke of Schleswig through reversion, Otto of Pinnenberg gets the County of Holstein - but has to take an oath of allegiance to King John as Duke of Saxe-Lauenburg. This sort of works out as in otl and keeps the Holsatian nobility's land from fracturing, but Schleswig might be more easily kept as part of Denmark, while the grip on Holstein will be more loose. If the Pinnenburg line follows track then the united County of Holstein will fracture in the mid 1460's and only be reunified in the mid 16th century.

This seems the most likely to me; it tows the line between what's achievable in the realm of compromises while also being appealing to the interests involved.

It's moreso that the Dukes of Saxe-Lauenburg were far weaker than their supposed "vassals" in Holstein, with the weight of Denmark behind them though, they wouldn't necessarily be.

"loose leash" was my diplomatic way of trying to say this, but I don't think any of it came across, in hindsight. But yes, a Danish Ascanian has "no reason" to grant the Shauenburgers free range because now he's actually powerful enough to keep them in-line.