WI: Entrenched European caste system?
- Thread starter Zuvarq
- Start date
I could imagine a super-feudalist system that basically makes it the law to follow the fathers proffession. However, if mercentalism and colonialism come about, I can see its demise.
The trouble with keeping the castes (or Estates) is that the Fourth Estate was freed by the Black Death, when so many died that the First and Second Estate turned a blind eye to the Fourth Estate (the pesants) moving around instead of being tied to one place. This lead to the Fourth Estate merging with the Third.
The British caste system survived (all be it unoffically) until atleast WWI, and many say it still survives now, but there is certainly more mobility than originally intended.
In the UK it was the Third Estate (the burghers / merchants) who caused the problems, as they had money and often used to buy themselves into the Second Estate (the Nobility) or into the First Estate (the clergy) - the UK became "a nation of shopkeepers" and the House of Commons slowly overcame the powers of the the Lords. This became more true with the Industrial Revolution and better eduation.
To keep the Estates you needed a Monarch, so no offical caste system is going to operate in a republic. A new caste system based on the haves and have-nots begins to operate (see the US today).
The British caste system survived (all be it unoffically) until atleast WWI, and many say it still survives now, but there is certainly more mobility than originally intended.
In the UK it was the Third Estate (the burghers / merchants) who caused the problems, as they had money and often used to buy themselves into the Second Estate (the Nobility) or into the First Estate (the clergy) - the UK became "a nation of shopkeepers" and the House of Commons slowly overcame the powers of the the Lords. This became more true with the Industrial Revolution and better eduation.
To keep the Estates you needed a Monarch, so no offical caste system is going to operate in a republic. A new caste system based on the haves and have-nots begins to operate (see the US today).
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This is a bit difficult- a caste system is inevitably going to change and modify itself over centuries. In India, for example, the caste system varied wildly from place to place and time to time
True and caste system in India hasn't been always very strict. It became stricter during British colonial era.
Yeah that was one of the more spectacular own goals of the British Raj. Think the Caste System is bad? Make really detailed records of it and then as a culturally alien foreign ruler attack it, you'll simultaneously rally Indian support behind the system and enable it's supporters to use the new superior records to tighten it up.
There was a law to that effect for many professions during the Dominate. Diocletian started it for professions seen as being of strategic importance, and Constantine expanded it quite a bit (google of "diocletian hereditary professions" or "constantine hereditary professions"). I'm not sure whether it broke down with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire or persisted into the early Middle Ages.
To a point, as far as gypsies go, it is unofficially in place in not few parts of Europe. Though I would not call it really a "caste" system. However, AFAIK the gypsies and some related groups are thought to have sort of originated out of the Indian caste system...
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Again, varying wildly by region- in Kerala for example it was incredibly strict and included different castes of muslims, jews and different types of christians
I thought one aspect of the caste system was that in many occasions the different caste speaks a different dialect if not different language entirely. Or were even made up of foreigners. Part of the attitude of a caste system is that the lower people are not only low class but culturally and racially different.
Also for a European "Untouchable" caste maybe these guys would count:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagots
Because India is the caste society of OTL, and China and Japan are pretty hierarchical too.
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Ah, I see, we're going with broad stereotypes. This after posts explaining the complexity and variation of the caste system even within India. As for China being 'hierarchical', yes, depending of time period about as much so as Medieval or Early Modern Europe.
But using vague stereotypes with no detail backing up your argument is so muh easier
If the Western empire fell in a different manner, you might get a simplified caste system.
The iinvading germanics try to keep their 'purity', and only marry amoung themselves. The Roman upper class keeps a lock on what bureaucracy is left. Peasants are, well, peasants. Jews provide banking and some urban merchant positions. Greeks provide the major business elite, especially in port cities. Armenians, say, become the travelly 'peddler' class. Barbarians from beyond the frontier serve as slaves.
There was otl considerable division by ethnicity in the labour sphere in the Ottoman empire. Import that kind of constuct into western europe, and let it formalise....
The Ostrogothic kingdom of italy was heading in that direction, sort of, if you wanted a pod, maybe they survive.
The iinvading germanics try to keep their 'purity', and only marry amoung themselves. The Roman upper class keeps a lock on what bureaucracy is left. Peasants are, well, peasants. Jews provide banking and some urban merchant positions. Greeks provide the major business elite, especially in port cities. Armenians, say, become the travelly 'peddler' class. Barbarians from beyond the frontier serve as slaves.
There was otl considerable division by ethnicity in the labour sphere in the Ottoman empire. Import that kind of constuct into western europe, and let it formalise....
The Ostrogothic kingdom of italy was heading in that direction, sort of, if you wanted a pod, maybe they survive.
For the "WI" part, this would have huge implications when, in OTL, colonial expansion started becoming more long-range and a big source of wealth. If your peasants are tied down to your land or to certain jobs they certainly can't just randomly decide to become sailors looking for a better life. Assuming that there was no chance to improve their condition, they would probably not have that incentive either.
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You seem to be conflating a caste system with serfdom- a caste system doesn't necessarily mean you're tied to the land. It simply tends to restrict you to a particular role or set of roles within society. Especially in pre-19th Century colonialist models it certainly wasn't necessarily the peasants who tended to set out looking for a better life but what we'd call middle to lower middle class people. If you look at North America, for example, they encouraged poorer types to go over as indentured servants initially but that idea got dumped in favour of using slaves which is why the American ethos was built around the small landowner or the small business owner- poor people certainly didn't have a great role in that idea.
A caste system wouln't necessarily change that- it would still be the lower middle classes (small independent farmers and businessmen) who would be going out to settle.
Having said that, serfdom certainly didn't seem to stop the Russian colonisation of Northern Eurasia- and I'd argue that that was just as much a colonial process as the settlement of the Americas or Australia.