WI: Edward the Exile survives

[30PrincesAndAKing]

In 1054, King Edward of England (known to history as "the Confessor") sent Bishop Ealdred of Worcester on an important mission: recall King Edward's namesake nephew Edward the Exile from Hungary and bring him back to England to serve as his uncle's heir. Evidently, negotiations for Edward's return were secured, as he traveled to England in 1057 with his family (including his wife Agatha, and their children, Edgar, Margaret, and Christina).

Unfortunately for King Edward, his nephew died almost immediately after he arrived in England, depriving the aging king of a potential (and much-needed) heir, as little Edgar was widely considered too young to become king.

But what if Edward the Exile survived? Assuming King Edward dies on-schedule, Edward the Exile would be about 50 years old in 1066. Would he have been able to build a strong enough powerbase in England during the intervening 9 years to secure the kingship for himself? Or would Edward still have to contend with the powerful family of Earl Godwin, whose members (such as OTL's King Harold) were younger and more ambitious? Would Harald Hardrada and William of Normandy still press their claims to England with a member of the West-Saxon royal house on the throne, and, if so, would Edward be able to resist them?

Edward the Exile is a bit of an enigma, so his character is hard to assess. He spent most of his life abroad, mainly in Russia and Hungary, so he may be seen as a foreigner in comparison to the Godwin brothers. Conversely, it's possible that Edward may have aided Andrew I in attaining the Hungarian throne, so he's not without combat experience or international connections.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Edward the Exile would have a problem in that his power base would pretty much be just whatever his uncle decides to give him. The Godwinsons hold enormous power, having in 1051 to 1052 been exiled from England, then very quickly returned and with armed force compelled the king to restore to them their titles and lands. In addition the Confessor's wife is the sister of the Godwinsons so she has no interest in supporting the Exile. If he can use charisma to convince men to join him and conquer parts of Wales or Ireland or Scotland he may create his own power base large enough to at least become a contender.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Edward the Exile would have a problem in that his power base would pretty much be just whatever his uncle decides to give him. The Godwinsons hold enormous power, having in 1051 to 1052 been exiled from England, then very quickly returned and with armed force compelled the king to restore to them their titles and lands. In addition the Confessor's wife is the sister of the Godwinsons so she has no interest in supporting the Exile. If he can use charisma to convince men to join him and conquer parts of Wales or Ireland or Scotland he may create his own power base large enough to at least become a contender.

Would it not be impossible for Edward the Exile to make common cause with the Godwins? I mean, two of the biggest reasons why Edward the Confessor didn't like the family of Earl Godwin (that he held them responsible for the death of his brother Alfred, and that their powerful position prevented him from repudiating Edith) didn't apply for Edward the Exile.

Perhaps it's possible for Edward the Exile to pacify the Godwin family by simply confirming their positions? With an undisputed heir, whose age isn't a bar to his inheritance (unlike poor Edgar OTL), there's the chance that any attempt made on the throne by the Godwins would appear too grasping. Then Edward can simply bide his time as king, hoping to live long enough so that Edgar will be of-age when he dies, all the while slowly chipping away at the Godwins' position one appointee at a time.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Would it not be impossible for Edward the Exile to make common cause with the Godwins? I mean, two of the biggest reasons why Edward the Confessor didn't like the family of Earl Godwin (that he held them responsible for the death of his brother Alfred, and that their powerful position prevented him from repudiating Edith) didn't apply for Edward the Exile.

Perhaps it's possible for Edward the Exile to pacify the Godwin family by simply confirming their positions? With an undisputed heir, whose age isn't a bar to his inheritance (unlike poor Edgar OTL), there's the chance that any attempt made on the throne by the Godwins would appear too grasping. Then Edward can simply bide his time as king, hoping to live long enough so that Edgar will be of-age when he dies, all the while slowly chipping away at the Godwins' position one appointee at a time.

Alfred is Edward's uncle, too. If anything there'll be even more antipathy. Godwinsons hoping Edith will bear a son and ensure their kinsman becomes king, and probably under their regency; vs. Edward hoping the queen remains childless and so he himself can become king.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Alfred is Edward's uncle, too. If anything there'll be even more antipathy. Godwinsons hoping Edith will bear a son and ensure their kinsman becomes king, and probably under their regency; vs. Edward hoping the queen remains childless and so he himself can become king.

But Edward the Exile wasn't raised with Alfred, and in fact had never even met him, so I doubt he'd be very attached to his memory. And the cat's out of the bag at this point vis-à-vis Edith having a son; they'd been married for more than 12 years at this point, with no pregnancies. And for all we know, Edith may welcome the opportunity to have an influence over Edward's kids in-lieu of children of her own, acting in a pseudo-grandmotherly role. But this is admittedly pure speculation, and the opposite may well be true.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

But Edward the Exile wasn't raised with Alfred, and in fact had never even met him, so I doubt he'd be very attached to his memory. And the cat's out of the bag at this point vis-à-vis Edith having a son; they'd been married for more than 12 years at this point, with no pregnancies. And for all we know, Edith may welcome the opportunity to have an influence over Edward's kids in-lieu of children of her own, acting in a pseudo-grandmotherly role. But this is admittedly pure speculation, and the opposite may well be true.

Hmmm, good points. Still England is elective at this point. I do think the Godwinsons will want to keep hold of many earldoms and so be able to elect "their" candidate, which probably will end up being Harold Godwinson. The Exile definitely has a chance, especially if he can get the Mercians to support him. Maybe Edith of Mercia is married to Edward the Exile instead of Llywelyn.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Maybe Edith of Mercia is married to Edward the Exile instead of Llywelyn.

Well, Edward's already married, so he'd have to repudiate Agatha, or Agatha would have to predecease him (she was still alive in 1067, but we don't know how long we lived after that).

It's hard to say what consequences repudiating Agatha would have, as her family connections are unknown. She may have been a paternal niece of Emperor Henry (II or III), or possibly the sister of a nebulous Queen of Hungary--or neither. If she has Imperial connections, then repudiating her would be rather difficult.

 

[Tyler96]

Could the Godwins be in a position to foist a female member of their family upon Edgar (one of Harold’s daughters?), thus allowing them to keep their claws dug into the monarchy without having to grab the throne?

 

[VVD0D95]

Could the Godwins be in a position to foist a female member of their family upon Edgar (one of Harold’s daughters?), thus allowing them to keep their claws dug into the monarchy without having to grab the throne?

That does seem the most likely choice, yes.

 

[Tyler96]

That does seem the most likely choice, yes.

Could easily remain the powers behind the throne in that instance, especially if Edgar comes to the throne at a reasonably young age.

 

[VVD0D95]

Could easily remain the powers behind the throne in that instance, especially if Edgar comes to the throne at a reasonably young age.

Definirelt which I think would be the Godwin thing to do

 

[Henderson]

Honestly I think the more interesting question here is whether he would even be accepted as King. Think about it. Edward has spent practically his entire life outside of England. He was mainly raised in Kiev, at the court of Yaroslav the Wise (who was most likely his father-in-law as well), and he later settled in Hungary after helping Andrew I regain his throne. It would be a miracle if he even spoke good English, since he'd would've had no use for it out east.

That's not to mention the ideas he would have about religion, administration, and all other aspects of ruling. He'd likely fit more into the Russo-Byzantine mold for an Orthodox monarch, rather than the traditional Western Catholic one. Hell I doubt he would even have a proper understanding of the English government as a whole, like the positions and simply how it functioned.

William the Bastard would look like the reasonable candidate when compared to the outlandishly foreign Edward. I doubt that the many lords of England, already fearing domination by Danes, Northmen, and the French, would be willing to accept essentially the ultimate foreigner as their Lord and King.

 

[Atterdag]

That's not to mention the ideas he would have about religion, administration, and all other aspects of ruling. He'd likely fit more into the Russo-Byzantine mold for an Orthodox monarch, rather than the traditional Western Catholic one. Hell I doubt he would even have a proper understanding of the English government as a whole, like the positions and simply how it functioned.

I think you’re severely overstating the differences here. English kings were hardly traditional Catholics, and Russia was hardly a Byzantine-like state at this point, it still retained a large part of its Norse heritage (Edward also spent a lot of his youth in Scandinavian courts), and Norse kings like Canute had shown themselves capable of governing in the English structure just fine. As for language, no matter how poor or good it may be when he arrives he will have a decade to learn it. He isn’t a foreigner, his family is in England, he just has exceedingly good contacts with many foreign European courts - a potential great boon actually.

 

[material_boy]

I think you’re severely overstating the differences here. English kings were hardly traditional Catholics, and Russia was hardly a Byzantine-like state at this point, it still retained a large part of its Norse heritage (Edward also spent a lot of his youth in Scandinavian courts), and Norse kings like Canute had shown themselves capable of governing in the English structure just fine. As for language, no matter how poor or good it may be when he arrives he will have a decade to learn it. He isn’t a foreigner, his family is in England, he just has exceedingly good contacts with many foreign European courts - a potential great boon actually.

I agree with all of this except for the last sentence. The Exile's European allies would be too far away to be any real help in this era.

It's possible the Exile could receive a major earldom and build his own power base in Northumbria before the Confessor's death if Tostig Godwinson is still exiled on schedule in ATL. That would really shake things up come the 1066 election.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Could the Godwins be in a position to foist a female member of their family upon Edgar (one of Harold’s daughters?), thus allowing them to keep their claws dug into the monarchy without having to grab the throne?

I considered this possibility. It seems that there aren't many (documented) female members in the Godwin family of the right age to marry Edgar; none of Harold's brothers left daughters so far as I can tell, which just leaves Gytha and Gunhild (daughters of Harold) as options. I don't think we know when they were born with any confidence, so we can only hope they were the right age to marry Edgar (who was probably born in the early 1050s, since he's said to be the same age as Robert Curthose).

I think you’re severely overstating the differences here. English kings were hardly traditional Catholics, and Russia was hardly a Byzantine-like state at this point, it still retained a large part of its Norse heritage (Edward also spent a lot of his youth in Scandinavian courts), and Norse kings like Canute had shown themselves capable of governing in the English structure just fine. As for language, no matter how poor or good it may be when he arrives he will have a decade to learn it. He isn’t a foreigner, his family is in England, he just has exceedingly good contacts with many foreign European courts - a potential great boon actually.

I agree. Even Edward the Confessor spent most of his life in Normandy before he became king, and as you said, Canute proved very able and respected despite being a Dane (arguably the harder barrier to overcome given England's recent history with the Viking invasions at the time).

I agree with all of this except for the last sentence. The Exile's European allies would be too far away to be any real help in this era.

I agree. Hungary (where Edward's most recent contacts would be) is very far away and landlocked, and it took 3 years for Edward to travel from there to England, so it's likely that news would reach Hungary too late for any of his allies to be of any use. That said, it would be interesting to see Edward bring over some Hungarian (Slavic?) influences to England, even if it doesn't actually receive any help from them.

 

[Victoria]

Honestly I think the more interesting question here is whether he would even be accepted as King. Think about it. Edward has spent practically his entire life outside of England. He was mainly raised in Kiev, at the court of Yaroslav the Wise (who was most likely his father-in-law as well), and he later settled in Hungary after helping Andrew I regain his throne. It would be a miracle if he even spoke good English, since he'd would've had no use for it out east.

That's not to mention the ideas he would have about religion, administration, and all other aspects of ruling. He'd likely fit more into the Russo-Byzantine mold for an Orthodox monarch, rather than the traditional Western Catholic one. Hell I doubt he would even have a proper understanding of the English government as a whole, like the positions and simply how it functioned.

William the Bastard would look like the reasonable candidate when compared to the outlandishly foreign Edward. I doubt that the many lords of England, already fearing domination by Danes, Northmen, and the French, would be willing to accept essentially the ultimate foreigner as their Lord and King.

It's not like he would take the throne the moment he arrives in England. He would have years to learn the language and customs and establish connections before Edward the confessor dies.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

It's not like he would take the throne the moment he arrives in England. He would have years to learn the language and customs and establish connections before Edward the confessor dies.

And (Old) English probably isn't as hard to learn at this point in history as it is today, especially for someone who presumably already knew at least two languages (assuming Edward knows Russian and/or Hungarian). Admittedly, Edward is in his 40s, when language acquisition is a bit harder.

I wonder if Edward spoke English with his (by this point, deceased) brother Edmund, or even his mother Ealdgyth? We have no idea when either of them died, so Ealdgyth could have conceivably lived long enough to follow her sons in exile and teach them English. But this is admittedly entirely speculation, as we have no idea what happened to the boys' mother after Edmund Ironside died. And since Canute sent the boys to Sweden to be killed, it seems unlikely he would send their mother along with them.

It's hard to say.

 

[david31]

Edward is reputed to have spent some time in the court of Yaroslav the Wise in Kiev. As the Kievan Rus were descended from Swedish Varangians he could have been fluent in Old Norse, a language spoken in many parts of Northumbria and closely related to the old Danish dialects of the Danelaw. And then again after his arrival in England he would have time to brush up on any English he may have remembered from his childhood.

Of his brother Edmund there is no concrete information but legend suggests that he accompanied his brother and their fellow exile Prince Andrew of Hungary when they went to Hungary to restore Andrew to the throne. Edmund is reputed to have made a good marriage there but after this all mention of him ends. It is assumed that he died before his brother returned to England.

 

[Mikestone8]

Could easily remain the powers behind the throne in that instance, especially if Edgar comes to the throne at a reasonably young age.

Which if the Exile is already in his fifties, is more than likely.

 

[david31]

He could well have lived into his sixties. His uncle, Edward the Confessor, the only one of Aethraed Unraed's sons we know who died definitely of natural causes, lived well past sixty. In 1066 he'd have been back in the country nearly a decade and would, one would assume have developed his own power base. Unlike Edgar he would have been a man grown and I'm sure Edward the Confessor would have been generous to his kinsman.

The claim of Harold Godwinsson to the throne rested on him being the King's closest adult male relative alongside being the largest landowner, a successful war-leader and sub-regulas in the final days of Edward's reign. If Edward the Exile could avoid being side-lined he would have been an unchallenged candidate to succeed his uncle, in all possibility supported by Harold and his brothers. Especially if they could arrange some marriage alliances with the new king's offspring!