WI Alexander III of Scotland lived?

[Elfwine]

Even the Lordship of the Isles website, which refers to it as a superpower(?!), also refers to it as a "nominal vassal".

http://lordshipoftheisles.webs.com/lordshipoftheisles.htm

That's more than France ever got out of England.

This is more ambiguous http://macdonnellofleinster.org/page_15c_the_macdonald_era.htm

Would love to see any suggestions for further reading, though.

 

[Neala]

The Lords of the Isles were quite able to raid the western seaboard of Scotland. They never however managed to penetrate the heartlands of the realm, whereas the Scottish Crown did on a couple of occasions get to the heart of the Lordship, albeit with some difficulty. In 1411 they did manage to break through to Aberdeenshire, but they were stopped at Harlaw by local levies which hardly suggests that the Lordship was more powerful than the Kingdom of Scots. Indeed the following year the Regent, the Duke of Albany, brought an army into the earldom of Ross, which the Lords of the Isles sought to claim, and forced the then lord to submit to his authority. No Scots king was ever forced to bend the knee to a Lord of the Isles. And in 1475 the King of Scots, James III - by all accounts a weak character - forfeited John of the Isles of the earldom of Ross and made him a Lord of Parliament, which is the lowest rank of the Scottish peerage - would a ruler as powerful as the King of Scots feel obliged to accept such humiliating terms?

This is looking at a period 125 years and more after the POD. Arguably the Lordship was in decline by the beginning of 15th Century. It was overstretched and had forsaken it's traditional naval approach to warfare to acquire significant lands on the Scottish mainland. This then made them vulnerable to the King of Scots. It's notable that the King of Scots wasn't able to extend influence in the Isles until the Lordship first overstretched itself

 

[Elfwine]

If gaining more land (meaning men, money, etc.) is overstretch, one has to wonder how much in the way of resources it had to stretch out.

I mean, England for instance is bigger than the Lordship + Ross, yet its not overstretched.

 

[I Blame Communism]

If gaining more land (meaning men, money, etc.) is overstretch, one has to wonder how much in the way of resources it had to stretch out.

I mean, England for instance is bigger than the Lordship + Ross, yet its not overstretched.

I think what he'd driving at is that the Lordship had a particular impunity because its power was on the seas, but trying to build up too big a powerbase on the mainland meant taking on the already established forces of the king's faction.

For comparison, Orkney where my family's from was in this broad period (before it was officially part of Scotland, but the earls were married into the Scottish nobility and took part in the faction-politics of northern Scotland) several times held to ransom by the seizure of its twin possesion in Caithness (which was properly part of Scotland and, more to the point, on land).

 

[Elfwine]

I think what he'd driving at is that the Lordship had a particular impunity because its power was on the seas, but trying to build up too big a powerbase on the mainland meant taking on the already established forces of the king's faction.

For comparison, Orkney where my family's from was in this broad period (before it was officially part of Scotland, but the earls were married into the Scottish nobility and took part in the faction-politics of northern Scotland) several times held to ransom by the seizure of its twin possesion in Caithness (which was properly part of Scotland and, more to the point, on land).

This might be true. But that sounds more like the invulnerability of "We have ships and you don't" than being able to take on Scotland in a fight if a fight did happen.

 

[Gonzaga]

Going back to the original POD: if Alexander III lives longer then his wife doesn't marry again with the Duke of Brittany. Any idea for an alternative wife for him?

 

[Lord Douglas]

I don't get your point about artillery or heavy cavalry as the Lordship was a maritime power. As far as Vietnam goes the Americans weren't on a par with the Viet Cong. The Americans were far better armed, had far more training, and not the slightest clue how to deal with the VC.

I'm using it to illustrate the point that the Kings of Scots were far more powerful than the Lords of the Isles. If you pit the full military power of the Kings of Scots against the Lords of the Isles, then there's no doubt that the former would win - that's why the Lords of the Isles rarely tried to over-step the mark by raiding into the Lowlands, and why, when they did, they tended to be slapped down (and indeed ultimately why the Lordship of the Isles came to an end).

Ah but they did. They had better resources and manpower (ever wondered why Council Isle had no defences?), they negotiated on equal terms with the Kings of England and representatives of the "Holy See".

You'll need to provide some proof for the assertion that the Lordship had better resources and manpower because all the available evidence points the other way. There isn't even much proof that such a thing as a 'Council Isle' existed, given that the only evidence comes from chroniclers writing after the demise of the Lordship.

With regards to negotiations with foreign powers, that doesn't really mean anything. The Earl of Douglas negotiated with the King of France, yet the latter would not have seen the former as his equal, while most great lords had dealings from time to time with the Holy See. All that the existence of secret treaties mean is that the Lords of the Isles were seen as useful by the Kings of England, and thus it benefitted them to enter into negotiations on occasion.

 

[VVD0D95]

Just found this thread, so not sure if it is still in use, but regardless, if Alexander did not go into that storm is it possible that that child that his wife Yolande was pregnant with emerges alive and not stillborn thus continuing the House of Canmore?