In my opinion, we don't hear about it as much because the atomic attacks are mostly discussed in the context of the impending invasion, though I disagree that it isn't mentioned at all. Many historians point out the death toll in Japanese occupied Asia as well as expected deaths among POWs, other Allied militaries, and among the Japanese themselves had the war continued.What is your opinion on the OP, @BobTheBarbarian?
Hiroshima was not picked due to it being a military target as well,
... it was a show of force the US picked against the Japanese and Soviets, who were invading Manchuria.
Japan was blockaded in the sea, their civilian industry was completely destroyed. If the Japanese would've scarified everything to not surrender, then there is no reason why they would've surrendered to begin with in 1945.
The fact that military objects were located in those cities didn't mean the cities themselves with their civilian populations were acceptable targets. Remember, we were there to beat the Japanese, not act like them.We've gone over this multiple times, both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets with multiple military units in the city, war industries and transportation resources.
Good points.We've gone over this multiple times, both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets with multiple military units in the city, war industries and transportation resources.
No the Soviets had nothing to do with the decisions since they were made months in advance and the Soviets didn't invade till AFTER the first bomb was dropped.
The Japanese MILITARY was not going to surrender without a long laundry list of conditions that would essentially allow them to be ready to go to war again in about a decade. That's according to THEIR statements and records. The Emperor in a highly uncharacteristic and unprecedented move went against the War Councils decisions and broadcast a surrender speech directly to the Japanese people and the Allies. He did this because he felt that with the advent of the Atomic Bomb that the Allies could and would destroy Japan utterly if they continued to resist. Yes he also feared that the Allies would divide Japan with the Soviet Union as they were doing with Germany but between the blockade and the a-bombs he feared that following the military line of thinking of trying to 'cost' the allies so many casualties that they would come to the negotiation table and give the military the 'surrender' they wanted was going to have the opposite effect and harden the Allies to the point where they would move to wipe out both the nation and culture of Japan and all it's works.
So he UNCONDITIONALLY surrendered to the Allies. Period. What followed with the occupation and peace was something that was worked out later but at the time the surrender document was signed in Tokyo bay the surrender WAS unconditional and total. It was later decided that keeping the Emperor was needed for both national stability and to give an example to the Japanese people. Trials were held just as in Germany, (recall one of the "non-negotiable" demands from the military and war council was the those would ONLY be held by the Japanese with no foreign observers or over-sight) and decisions were then made but demanded surrender and actual surrender were completely unconditional as per Allied demands.
Don't get the surrender and post-surrender confused.
Randy
No end of 'evacuate or die' warning leaflets were dropped prior. If the civilian population still didn't heed those warnings after Meetinghouse, well...The fact that military objects were located in those cities didn't mean the cities themselves with their civilian populations were acceptable targets. Remember, we were there to beat the Japanese, not act like them.
While it could be defiance, ignorance or stubbornness, they may not have been allowed to move or may have had nowhere else to go.No end of 'evacuate or die' warning leaflets were dropped prior. If the civilian population still didn't heed those warnings after Meetinghouse, well...
I have yet to hear anything about the junta deliberately ordering their civilian population to stay put in the face of the Allied bombings on pain of punishment or similar.While it could be defiance, ignorance or stubbornness, they may not have been allowed to move or may have had nowhere else to go.
Not limiting this to the atomic bombings. I think that after massive conventional raids like Meetinghouse, if you still wanted to remain in a metropolitan area, you would be nothing short of having a death wish.The leaflets were dropped after the first bomb had dropped, which probably would only confuse people further. There was no warning prior, contrary to popular belief.
There were leaflets dropped that cities would be targets for destruction. Granted, those didn't specifically mention the cities would be destroyed by one single bomb, but the chances of an average civilian taking that as a serious threat instead of a boast would be measured in single numbers before the bombing of Hiroshima.The leaflets were dropped after the first bomb had dropped, which probably would only confuse people further. There was no warning prior, contrary to popular belief.
Even after eighty thousand people dying in one night back in March?There were leaflets dropped that cities would be targets for destruction. Granted, those didn't specifically mention the cities would be destroyed by one single bomb, but the chances of an average civilian taking that as a serious threat instead of a boast would be measured in single numbers before the bombing of Hiroshima.
They should have bombed Tokyo,ze endThe fact that military objects were located in those cities didn't mean the cities themselves with their civilian populations were acceptable targets. Remember, we were there to beat the Japanese, not act like them.
The fact that military objects were located in those cities didn't mean the cities themselves with their civilian populations were acceptable targets. Remember, we were there to beat the Japanese, not act like them.
No end of 'evacuate or die' warning leaflets were dropped prior. If the civilian population still didn't heed those warnings after Meetinghouse, well...
While it could be defiance, ignorance or stubbornness, they may not have been allowed to move or may have had nowhere else to go.
I have yet to hear anything about the junta deliberately ordering their civilian population to stay put in the face of the Allied bombings on pain of punishment or similar.
The leaflets were dropped after the first bomb had dropped, which probably would only confuse people further. There was no warning prior, contrary to popular belief.
Even after eighty thousand people dying in one night back in March?
That was with 100s of planes loaded with dozens of bombs each. Not one plane with one bomb. And the latter is what I've said: before HiroshimaEven after eighty thousand people dying in one night back in March?
The Strategic Bombing Survey indicated considerable absenteeism from Japanese manufacturing services during the final months of the war, which sort of puts a dent in the statement that terror bombing does nothing to drain civilian morale.It was considered 'warning' enough that you lived in a city that contained military or industrial targets that could be hit. As to not being able to leave there were of course reasons and restrictions. If you worked in a factory or transport service you probably didn't have an option to just up and leave.
You could probably relocate your family if it came down to it but yes the military/government on all sides of the war tended to "insist" that workers stay in place despite the dangers.
Still though. If the civilians on the opposing side don't want to get out of Dodge even after eighty thousand dead in a conventional bombing raid, what can you really do?That was with 100s of planes loaded with dozens of bombs each. Not one plane with one bomb. And the latter is what I've said: before Hiroshima
few civiians would believe that it would be possible to destroy a city with a single bomb from a single plane. And that is why the warning wasn't more specific.
Where can they go after they've been consistently firebombed? Not everyone is super rich to be able to move from their home.Still though. If the civilians on the opposing side don't want to get out of Dodge even after eighty thousand dead in a conventional bombing raid, what can you really do?
They did.They should have bombed Tokyo,ze end
That's tantamount to asking the civilian population to leave their lives behind and rebel against the government, both of which were effectively suicide (or else we'll kill you!). It also distances from the fact that entire cities and their populations were the targets - as the basis of Japan's economic and military potential.No end of 'evacuate or die' warning leaflets were dropped prior. If the civilian population still didn't heed those warnings after Meetinghouse, well...
The notions of ius ad bellum and ius in bello have been around for hundreds of years, including condemnations of indiscriminate killing of noncombatants. The US itself condemned Germany, Italy, and Japan for bombing civilians before later doing the same thing. Just because those three were aggressor nations and the US wasn't didn't make it right to throw those principles away.In the context of the time the fact that cities held civilian populations but would still be accepted as legitimate military targets was a given both due to the inaccuracy of "precision" bombing and general acceptance of civilian causalities. Focusing on trying to create as many civilian casualties as possible per mission was considered "wrong" but again the limitations of the time it wasn't going to be a major factor in planning.
Yes, that's my point. Realistically they couldn't be warned much more than they were.Still though. If the civilians on the opposing side don't want to get out of Dodge even after eighty thousand dead in a conventional bombing raid, what can you really do?
My relatives in WW2 essentially had a choice of staying put or staying with family. Since pretty much all the family lived in the same town or its immediate surrounds, that didn't leave a lot of choice.Where can they go after they've been consistently firebombed? Not everyone is super rich to be able to move from their home.