What if: Afrika Corps gets T-34

Re-reading on the problems of the Afrika Corps, regarding lack of equipment, while at the same time reading on early Barbarossa victories, a thought struck me: what if the german army had sent captured T-34s to Afrika Korps?

Bear with me for a moment. We know the germans used a lot of captured soviet equipment. Dozens of 76.2mm guns were used either as artillery or in Marder Jagpanzers, some of which also went to the AK. The use of captured T-34s is also on record. At the same time, there was the need to supply the AK with armour. And the T-34, with it's wide tracks and an operational range twice that of the PzIII or IV, would be ideal for the sandy/rocky wide areas of the desert.

So, instead of sending needed PzIII/IV, what if the germans send a new unit equiped with just T-34/76 from, say, November 1941? I don't think they could do it sooner. Say around 40-50 T-34s? Keep the PzIII/IV for the eastern front.

I realise this might be a problem, in terms of logistics, but that's nothing new. The efectiveness of the T-34 would, I think, overshadow those problems, since they were far superior to anything the british had.
 
T-34s AFAIK ran on crappy Soviet fuel, which didn't require the addition of benzene (and thus refining capacity). They would best be utilized where the source of the fuel is, i.e. in Russia.
 
40 to 50 tanks isnt going to make much difference especially as Mines, Anti Tank guns and breakdowns killed most of the british tanks
 
T-34 ran on diesel. Soviet fuel was not crappy, the V2 engine run well both in summer and winter.
With that said - away from the source of spare parts and ammo, with known problems with the transimission, the T-34 will not help much in North Africa. The 500-600 HP diesel engine will guzzle more fuel than a 300 HP gasoline engine, thus increasing the already stretched logistical situation.
 
I suspect that they would have little better luck if any than the British had using captured Italian tanks in 1941

Early T34s were very unreliable, frequently broke down on long road marches and from what I've read the Air filter would not have prevented sand from getting into the engine - bit of a problem if operating them in North Africa

Approx 50% of the T34s lost in 1941 had broken down and had to be abandoned or destroyed by their crews. This issue exacerbated by the poor training of their crews, poor condition of the tank pool and lack of integrated vehicle recovery and field maintenance units.

That being said the upgunned PIII and PIV are for their day more reliable than the Russian tank and with the exception of the slower Matilda II, better tanks than the British had

Lastly - I think all working or salvageable T34s recovered by the Germans on the Eastern front would have been used by Axis units on the eastern front who never had enough tanks of their own
 
There is not enough salvage t-34s to create a battalion, let alone a division and without a depot of spare parts to repair these captured units, better off keeping them in usage in the eastern front against the Soviets
 
Interestingly enough, the OTL plan for Operation Herkules featured a German tank battalion equipped with captured Soviet vehicles. However as Herkules/C3 was never executed the unit never saw combat
 
The T-34 would do poorly in the desert. Lots of inherent design flaws. Even the high quality T-34 built specifically for the U.S. to test failed after only some 340 km, and that was over in America. The air filters, as previously mentioned, were considered so bad by Aberdeen only a saboteur could have made them. Air filters would be especially important in the desert.
 
What would be the 'inherent design flaws' of T-34? Are we 100% certain that T-34 was built specially for the US test?
I'm obviously looking for surced material.
 

marathag

Banned
The Original report is MIA.
The Soviet reply, is not on seeing that report

"Evaluation of tanks T-34 and KV by workers of the Aberdeen testing grounds of the U.S."
(from the Tanker's forum, posted by Misha Veksler)

(Footnote 1 -- reads, "The full name of the document is, "An Evaluation of the T-34 and KV tanks by workers of the Aberdeen Testing Grounds of the U.S., submitted by firms, officers and members of military commissions responsible for testing tanks." The tanks were given to the U.S. by the Soviets at the end of 1942 for familiarization.")
The condition of the tanks

The medium tank T-34, after driving 343 km, became disabled and could not be fixed. The reason: owing to the extremely poor air cleaner on the diesel, a large quantity of dirt got into the engine and a breakdown occurred, as a result of which the pistons and cylinders were damaged to such a degree that they were impossible to fix. The tank was withdrawn from tests and was to be shelled by the KV and its "Z/ 3" (?) -- by the cannon of the M-10 tank. After this it would be sent to Aberdeen, where it would be analyzed and kept as an exhibit.

The heavy tank KV is still functional. Tests are continuing, although it has many mechanical defects.
The silhouette/configuration of the tanks

Everyone, without exception, approves of the shape of the hull of our tanks. The T-34's is particularly good. All are of the opinion that the shape of the T-34's hull is better than that of any American tank. The KV's is worse than on any current American tank.
Armor

A chemical analysis of the armour showed that on both tanks the armour plating has a shallow surface tempering, whereas the main mass of the armoured plating is made of soft steel.

In this regard, the Americans consider that, by changing the technology used to temper the armoured plating, it would be possible to significantly reduce its thickness while preserving its protective capacities. As a result the weight of the tank could be decreased by 8-10%, with all the resulting benefits (an increase in speed, reduction in ground pressure, etc.)
Hull

The main deficiency is the permeability to water of the lower hull during water crossings, as well as the upper hull during rain. In heavy rain lots of water flows through chinks/ cracks, which leads to the disabling of the electrical equipment and even the ammunition.

The Americans liked how the ammunition is stowed.
Turret

Its main weakness is that it is very tight. The Americans could not understand how our tankers could fit inside during winter, when they wear sheepskin jackets. The electrical mechanism for turning the turret is very bad. The motor is weak, heavily overloaded and sparks horribly, as a result of which the device regulating the speed of the rotation burns out, and the teeth of the cogwheels break into pieces. They recommend redoing it as a hydraulic or simply manual system.

KV-1 heavy tank at Bovington Museum (England) (photo by [...])
Armament

The gun of the T-34 is very good. It is simple, dependable and easy to service. Its weakness is that the initial speed of the shell is significantly less than that of the American "Z/ 3" (3200 feet versus 5700 feet per second).
Aiming/Back-sight

The general opinion: the best in the world. Incomparable with any existing (well-known here) tanks or any under development.
Track

The Americans very much like the idea of steel tracks. But they believe that until they receive the results of the comparative performance of steel vs. rubber tracks on American tanks in Tunis and other active fronts, there is no basis for changing from the American solution of rubber bushings and pads.

The deficiencies in our tracks from their viewpoint results from the lightness of their construction. They can easily be damaged by small calibre shells and mortar bombs. The pins are extremely poorly tempered and made of poor steel. As a result they quickly wear and the track often breaks. The idea of having loose track pins that are held in place by a cam welded to the side of the hull, at first was greatly liked by the Americans. But when in use under certain operating conditions, the pins would become bent which often resulted in the track rupturing. The Americans consider that if the armour is reduced in thickness the resultant weight saving can be used to make the tracks heavier and more reliable.
Suspension

On the T-34, it is poor. Suspension of the Christie type was tested long ago by the Americans, and unconditionally rejected. On our tanks, as a result of the poor steel on the springs, it very quickly (unclear word) and as a result clearance is noticeably reduced. On the KV the suspension is very good.
Motor

The diesel is good and light. The idea of using diesel engines on tanks is shared in full by American specialists and military personnel. Unfortunately, diesel engines produced in U.S. factories are used by the navy and therefore the army is deprived of the possibility of installing diesels in its tanks.

The deficiency of our diesels is the criminally poor air cleaners on the T-34. The Americans consider that only a saboteur could have constructed such a device. They also don't understand why in our manuals it is called oil-bath. Their tests in a laboratory showed that:

- the air cleaner doesn't clean at all the air which is drawn into the motor;
- its capacity does not allow for the flow of the necessary quantity of air, even when the motor is idling. As a result, the motor does not achieve its full capacity. Dirt getting into the cylinders leads them to quickly wear out, compression drops, and the engine loses even more power. In addition, the filter was manufactured, from a mechanical point of view, extremely primitively: in places the spot-welding of the electric welding has burned through the metal, leading to leakage of oil etc. On the KV the filter is better manufactured, but it does not secure the flow in sufficient quantity of normal cleaned air. On both motors the starters are poor, being weak and of unreliable construction.
Transmission

Without doubt, poor. An interesting thing happened. Those working on the transmission of the KV were struck that it was very much like those transmissions on which they had worked 12-15 years ago. The firm was questioned. The firm sent the blueprints of their transmission type A-23. To everyone's surprise, the blueprints of our transmission turned out to be a copy of those sent (?). The Americans were surprised, not that we were copying their design, but that we were copying a design that they had rejected 15-20 years ago. The Americans consider that, from the point of view of the designer, installing such a transmission in the tank would create an inhuman harshness for the driver (hard to work). On the T-34 the transmission is also very poor. When it was being operated, the cogs completely fell to pieces (on all the cogwheels). A chemical analysis of the cogs on the cogwheels showed that their thermal treatment is very poor and does not in any way meet American standards for such mechanisms.
Rolling friction clutches

Without doubt, poor. In America, they rejected the installation of friction clutches, even on tractors (never mind tanks), several years ago. In addition to the fallaciousness of the very principle, our friction clutches are extremely carelessly machined from low-quality steel, which quickly causes wear and tear, accelerates the penetration of dirt into the drum and in no way ensures reliable functioning.
General comments

From the American point of view, our tanks are slow. Both our tanks can climb an incline better than any American tank. The welding of the armour plating is extremely crude and careless. The radio sets in laboratory tests turned out to be not bad. However, because of poor shielding and poor protection, after installation in the tanks the sets did not manage to establish normal communications at distances greater than 10 miles. The compactness of the radio sets and their intelligent placement in the tanks was pleasing. The machining of equipment components and parts was, with few exceptions, very poor. In particular the Americans were troubled by the disgraceful design and extremely poor work on the drive/ gear/ transmission links/ blocks (?) on the T-34. After much torment they made new ones and replaced ours. All the tanks' mechanisms demand very frequent adjustments/ fine-tuning.
Conclusions, suggestions

1. On both tanks, quickly replace the air cleaners with models with greater capacity capable of actually cleaning the air.

2. The technology for tempering the armour plating should be changed. This would increase the protectiveness of the armour, either by using an equivalent thickness or, by reducing the thickness, lowering the weight and, accordingly, the use of metal.

3. Make the tracks thicker.

4. Replace the existing transmission of outdated design with the American "Final Drive," which would significantly increase the tanks' manoeuvrability.

5. Abandon the use of friction clutches.

6. Simplify the construction of small components, increase their reliability and decrease to the maximum extent possible the need to constantly make adjustments.

7. Comparing American and Russian tanks, it is clear that driving Russian tanks is much harder. A virtuosity is demanded of Russian drivers in changing gear on the move, special experience in using friction clutches, great experience as a mechanic, and the ability to keep tanks in working condition (adjustments and repairs of components, which are constantly becoming disabled). This greatly complicates the training of tankers and drivers.

8. Judging by samples, Russians when producing tanks pay little attention to careful machining or the finishing and technology of small parts and components, which leads to the loss of the advantage what would otherwise accrue from what on the whole are well designed tanks.

9. Despite the advantages of the use of diesel, the good contours of the tanks, thick armour, good and reliable armaments, the successful design of the tracks etc., Russian tanks are significantly inferior to American tanks in their simplicity of driving, manoeuvrability, the strength of firing [reference to speed of shell], speed, the reliability of mechanical construction and the ease of keeping them running.

Signed -- The head of the 2nd Department of the Main Intelligence Department of the Red Army, General Major of Tank Armies, Khlopo... (end missing: Khlopov?)
 
Thank you for the link.
The biggest problem looks to be the air filter, that required oiling in order to operate okay. The other autmotive parts are also of quality not up to the US (and very likely the British and German) standards, eg. the Soviets regarded the Pz-III and -IV as very reliable, unlike the Tiger or Panther. We know that T-34 was far less a reliable tank in 1941 than in 1942/43, let alone in 1944/45.

On the other hand - the 5700 fps muzzle velocity from the US gun was not achieved until the advent of the M1A1 Abrams? There seems that maneuverability over muddy and snovy terrain was overlooked by the Americans.

At any rate (another Soviet wiev on the Aberdeen test report): http://tankarchives.blogspot.hr/2013/04/aberdeen-t-34-and-kv-1-test.html
 
Thanks a lot for posting this! Best part of the thread! :D

PS: I just wish we could download it...
 
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marathag

Banned
On the other hand - the 5700 fps muzzle velocity from the US gun was not achieved until the advent of the M1A1 Abrams?

everything else was in metric, so I think some goof in translation. F-34 gun was only good for 2000fps with full diameter projectiles, and the M5 3" was 2600fps
 
I'm not sure what it is there to hate. T-34 was not an ideal tank, and no T-34 fanboy will be ever able to prove it was perfect. I've already disagreed with OP (send the T-34 in N.A) anyway.

everything else was in metric, so I think some goof in translation. F-34 gun was only good for 2000fps with full diameter projectiles, and the M5 3" was 2600fps

The US tank gun that mustered 2600 fps with full diameter projectile was in combat in 1944. I'd say you know better than to compare US tank gun from 1944 with Soviet tank gun from 1941.
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm not sure what it is there to hate. T-34 was not an ideal tank, and no T-34 fanboy will be ever able to prove it was perfect. I've already disagreed with OP (send the T-34 in N.A) anyway.
In terms of it's abilities, read the link I posted above. Basically the two man turret and lack of dedicated gunnery was a major combat liability. Beyond that it had a probably with the dust in Russia, forget the sand in Africa. The 1941-42 vintage T-34 was a mechanical/reliability mess, but by 1944 with the T-34/85 it had matured enough that it became pretty reliable in the field. The issue is that in 1941-42 when it mattered in Africa the captured T-34s were too much of a liability to field in Africa given that they'd need a lot of special hand made parts to cope with the environment and fix their inherent early war design flaws. Remember early war vintage models were effectively produced with the idea that they would not survive in combat beyond a few weeks or months, so they were produced to be easy to make and cheap enough as to be thrown away without much concern if lost in combat. They were more trouble than they were worth for a shoe string logistics area like Africa, where they lacked the maintenance facilities required to keep them running. Using them in Russia in behind the lines or quiet fronts was a far better use of them, because they could harvest ammo, fuel, and parts from captured/damaged Soviet models and supplies.
 
If the T34 was such a complete mess how the hell did the Germans keep on losing. Lots were made but according to some of the figures some broke down within tens of kilometers and after three days of combat the Soviets lost 75% to mechanical failures.

Theres also the fact the Germans destroyed about 100,000 of the 50,000 T34s made.

p.s not a T34 fanboi the Sherman is better in every aspect.
 
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