On that note, I think we're getting a bit too off-topic here, especially with how the US wasn't particularly internationalist at this time period (and wouldn't really be internationalist in its foreign policy until the World Wars) being something we need to take into account. Besides, feature creep is something this TL should avoid here at all costs.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
All due respect, I must disagree in the strongest terms. European armies lost to Prussia not due to lack of reform but because of faulty reforms. The Imperial Austrian Army lost Solferino despite a futuristic view on rifle fire because they were inadequately prepared and trained to use the weapon (+ all sorts of language issues in the multi-ethnic army). Thus they adopted the charging doctrine of the French, which got them into disaster at Sadowa despite their superior artillery doctrine and cavalry. The French then reacted to the Austrian defeat with tactical reform - entrench, play defensive and let the Prussians reenact Fredericksburg. The tactical reform failed because the French did not understand the greater initiative handed to Prussian units and completely allowed the Germans to dictate the fight. It was not obedience to tradition that landed them in trouble, rather a lack of institutions to analyze what went wrong or right in previous or foreign conflicts.
The Prussians, outside their infantry, actually performed quite poorly at Sadowa. Their light cavalry was constantly trounced, their artillery hung too far back and refused to sacrifice a single gun or man and their heavy cavalry only caused traffic jams during the whole conflict. The Prussians learned that and completely reformed their artillery arm to be their most lethal arm and changed their cavalry to be more reconnaissance focused.
More actually. Britain at that time did not even have universal suffrage (until 1918).
Am really late to the party on this one, but hurrah for the fall of Charleston!
Do wish that Nevada elector made it though lol, but otherwise looking forward to this war's end and on to Reconstruction!
Do wish that Nevada elector made it though lol, but otherwise looking forward to this war's end and on to Reconstruction!
We've hadsome discussions, including how former Confederates might flee to Brazil andthe emperor's daughter might find ways to defeat any attempts at a coup there, which in turn can show her leadership skills and convince him to let her take power when he dies.
It's been a fascinating rthread so far; I'm amazed at how much I'm learning about the militaries in Eurpe as well as the stuff going on in the Americas at this time. I'm sure we'll have lots more cool stuff when Reconstruction starts in the new thread. (And it looks like we'll be able to wrap this up before the 500 pages limit rather easily.)
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to each and everyone of you. May these holidays and the coming new year be filled with happiness and success.
This is a convincing argument. I've been thinking on terms of only the US thus far, but as we open to the wider world I believe a guiding thread would be a necessity. I've envisioned it as, rather, that reaction is inherently self-destructive, almost suicidal. Ultimately it's not that important a question, I guess, given that the focus will remain in the US, but a French Republic would be more fitting than continued Napoleonic monarchy.
There's no need to worry, I believe I understood your point, and realize you weren't actually comparing slavery and the legal subordination of wives.
Things will get ugly for the aristocrats as they realize that the government they created and then couped is no longer able to protect them.
I suppose a Statue of Liberty given to a country that actually upholds those ideals, instead of keeping a part of its population as subjugated second-class citizens, would be better.
It's a tragedy how many talented Black people had their careers cut down by terrorism and murder.
It really feels like a cruel joke how the US was seemingly on the path of truly changing for the better, but then Lincoln was assassinated and the bastard Andrew Johnson took charge. The implications of this second Revolution will change the American psyche and values permanently in ways we can scarcely conceive.
That connects with the other possibility I was toying with - to have France instead suffer its own more radical revolution. Not a commune victory, but instead of the grudging Republic have a France that truly embraces its revolutionary and democratic past. Getting from there to a British Republic would be interesting too.
I never really considered a "global" theme so to speak. Focused only on the US, the theme I was aiming for was that reaction is inherently self-destructive and that ultimately the arc of history bends towards justice - shown clearly in how each Southern attempt to resist the advance of liberty just sparked a more violent and immediate revolution for liberty. First their resistance destroying the party system and giving rise to the Republicans; then the war allowing for the immediate destruction of slavery; and finally the coup, allowing for their own ultimate perdition.
Max for all his faults didn't really deserve his OTL ending from what I know. I'll probably spare him no matter what I decide to do with the whole Mexico and France thing in the end... and right now I'm leaning towards full Juarez victory and a French Republic.
Yes, ultimately the choices that make the most sense are for the French puppet regime to fall and the French monarchy to be replaced by a Republic.
Rest assured that the focus will remain in the US, and at most we'll get a couple of international updates amidst far more updates on US internal politics.
Yeah, I've decided that that Nevada elector makes it here!
That indeed has been discussed and there are some interesting possibilities for Brazil, but it's also something to be determined.
Thank you, and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you as well! That goes to everyone else too.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to each and everyone of you. May these holidays and the coming new year be filled with happiness and success..
Huh. Why would iron want inflation? (Actually, if the U.S. didn’t have a silver standard, what/who did all those silver mines in Colorado (and I assume other states) sell to?)
Huh. Neat. I always have a soft spot for 19th century Austria/Austria-Hungary (with the asterisk that as part of them doing better military they’re also more democratic).
On that note, you could have Max be the first monarch of Romania or Bulgaria when they become independent from the Ottomans (or even be invited to Spain after 1868, which won’t be the first time a Civil War TL placed him there) as a “second chance” for him. At the very least, him being a major figure in Austro-Hungarian politics could have some ripple effects for how Austria-Hungary develops going forward.
Was it mentioned which ship had Robert Smalls and Co. on board when they stormed into Charleston?
I ask because two of the former Collins Line ships, SS Atlantic and SS Baltic were used by the Navy as troop ships during the war. Perhaps the story of the ships could be made more than just a footnote in the rise of Cunard.
Perhaps the tale could become one of how between slavocrats sabotaging the subsidies (the unrealistic demand "full speed, full time" and the complaint of "why should SOUTHRON taxes pay for YANKEE shipping magnates!") and bad luck (SS Artic disaster, SS Pacific ceasing) led to America's dominance of North Atlantic shipping in the early 19th century being lost to Cunard and others in the British industry.
I ask because two of the former Collins Line ships, SS Atlantic and SS Baltic were used by the Navy as troop ships during the war. Perhaps the story of the ships could be made more than just a footnote in the rise of Cunard.
Perhaps the tale could become one of how between slavocrats sabotaging the subsidies (the unrealistic demand "full speed, full time" and the complaint of "why should SOUTHRON taxes pay for YANKEE shipping magnates!") and bad luck (SS Artic disaster, SS Pacific ceasing) led to America's dominance of North Atlantic shipping in the early 19th century being lost to Cunard and others in the British industry.
Maximilian was not all that bad when it comes to a reorganization of the Mexican government into a more rational, scientific views: The organization of the Second Empire was based in geography and the material conditions of the regions of the country. That way, each department could benefit from their own economic activity., instead of the arbitrary delimitations of the states of the Republic, which had a political character, instead of an economical and/or geographical one.
I agree that the Second Empire was illegitimate, but Maximilian himself was pretty liberal...and that's why he lost political support. His disposition to negotiate with the moderate liberals and not abolish religious freedom made his government lose the support of the Conservatives. Carlota, his wife, was called La Roja (the Red [Queen/Carlota]) because of her temperament and social views.
I can agree that monarchies are bad and I would prefer Radical Republics, but Maximilian by himself was not a reactionary, or a bad person. He was just a prince that was lied to come to Mexico, and even after discovering the truth, he tried to reform the country into a scientific perspective, something that the Republicans didn't did.
Pennsylvania iron manufacturers actually favored the 1875 inflation bill thirteen to five. The reason is never explicitly mentioned, but during the Great Depression, profit margins were in decline. As for silver, it was still used as a commodity - jewelry back then and electronics now. IIRC, silver was also still used as currency in Asian countries. It should be noted that the price of silver basically collapsed after the US and other European countries (Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, etc) stopped using silver. The ratio of gold to silver price used to be 1:16 and then it became 1:24 by 1896.
I do have to put a caveat that their infantry was really, really not great. After Solferino, their main takeaway was the 100% aggression = victory. During the Second Schleswig War, the Prussians were rather baffled by the brave bayonet charges on strong Danish defenses, which did work but at the cost of very heavy casualties. They tried to copy Prussian superior firepower, but the KuK training and procurement was pretty messed up by Ausgleich: Hungarian parliament had a habit of slashing or vetoing army expansion/modernization bills, fearing that it would be used to invade them if the relationship ever turned sour.
Meanwhile, in Richmond:
Beauregard: The Yankees have managed to break the front in a broad formation. In the south, the foe has taken Charleston and pushes on to Columbia. The enemy now operates on the North between Petersburg and Richmond. And in the west the enemy is entering Western North Carolina.
Toombs: Everything will be fine with Johnston's counterattack.
Beauregard: Mr. Toombs... Johnston...
Early: Johnston could not field enough strength for a counterattack. Johnston's attack is not occurring.
Toombs: ...These people will stay here: Jackson, Beauregard, Early, and Hampton.
....
Toombs: That was an order! Johnston's attack was an order! Why has Johnston defied these orders? Has he turned traitor too? Everyone has become a coward, even the Virginians! All the Generals are nothing but a bunch of wicked, faithless cowards!
Jackson: Mr. Toombs I cannot allow you to insult the brave Virginians who-
Toombs: Nothing but cowards, traitors, and failures! Are they ready to become the slaves of Lincoln? Have they not an ounce of honor! They call themselves generals because they spent a few months at West Point learning to march, but now they are ready to kneel to Lincoln and his Negroes! It is the people who have defeated the Confederacy! Why haven't they risen up? If this is the fate they want I should have let Breckinridge betray us! I was never at an academy, and yet I did so much to defend this country from the evils of emancipation and Negro equality, and yet the people have not proven equal to these sacrifices... What a monstrous betrayal, but now they will pay, now that they will become the slaves of Yankees and Negroes, they will see that I was right.
Outside a woman cries, and her friend consoles her by reminding her that they can still apply for a pardon.
Toombs: Everything I did was for naught... I believed we were saving our people from Breckinridge, but if they agreed with him then it is over. The war... is lost. Gentlemen, get a ship for Cuba ready.
Beauregard: The Yankees have managed to break the front in a broad formation. In the south, the foe has taken Charleston and pushes on to Columbia. The enemy now operates on the North between Petersburg and Richmond. And in the west the enemy is entering Western North Carolina.
Toombs: Everything will be fine with Johnston's counterattack.
Beauregard: Mr. Toombs... Johnston...
Early: Johnston could not field enough strength for a counterattack. Johnston's attack is not occurring.
Toombs: ...These people will stay here: Jackson, Beauregard, Early, and Hampton.
....
Toombs: That was an order! Johnston's attack was an order! Why has Johnston defied these orders? Has he turned traitor too? Everyone has become a coward, even the Virginians! All the Generals are nothing but a bunch of wicked, faithless cowards!
Jackson: Mr. Toombs I cannot allow you to insult the brave Virginians who-
Toombs: Nothing but cowards, traitors, and failures! Are they ready to become the slaves of Lincoln? Have they not an ounce of honor! They call themselves generals because they spent a few months at West Point learning to march, but now they are ready to kneel to Lincoln and his Negroes! It is the people who have defeated the Confederacy! Why haven't they risen up? If this is the fate they want I should have let Breckinridge betray us! I was never at an academy, and yet I did so much to defend this country from the evils of emancipation and Negro equality, and yet the people have not proven equal to these sacrifices... What a monstrous betrayal, but now they will pay, now that they will become the slaves of Yankees and Negroes, they will see that I was right.
Outside a woman cries, and her friend consoles her by reminding her that they can still apply for a pardon.
Toombs: Everything I did was for naught... I believed we were saving our people from Breckinridge, but if they agreed with him then it is over. The war... is lost. Gentlemen, get a ship for Cuba ready.
Just listened to Ça Ira and the Chant Du Depart and remembered just how based French Republics can be.
Eh, I don't think I'll do much with him unless, as you note, I decide to do something with Austria-Hungary. Just sparing him because his execution has always felt unfair to me.
Frankly I tend not to trouble myself with such small details as what ship did what or what regiment was where. So, I don't know. I also don't know enough about shipping in the 19th century to make a meaningful comment on this regard. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, nonetheless!
Would it be possible for Juarez and co to adopt some of Max's reforms? They do seem to make a lot of sense.
Not unless you want Mexico to another civil war that soon given Juarez's power base