Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Red_Galiray]

Never have I ever loathed a paragraph more than this one that I absolutely agree with.

There is a construction to your work here, that rivals or perhaps surpasses An Age of Miracles. I even saw it in Miranda's Dream; though, as you you yourself said, your style wasn't as developed. There's something about switching between narrative and documentary writing that just does alternate history unlike anything else.

Also, I'd say that there are few Union Victory TLs out there. By that I mean, the civil war still starts in similar manner to OTL (if more or less intense in areas), but the Union victory is much more intense, in-your-face, and complete than OTL. Most other TLs are an alternate Civil War entirely, in part due to how far back they go.

Also sorry if this is incoherent, I usually am only able to overcome my anxiety and post when I'm too tired or ill to have anxiety. Which also tends to effect my coherence.

Yes, reading the early chapters of the other TL I find them really subpar. Much later they start to improve, and I think I developed a style that then I used and further refined here.

I was always more interested in the political and social side and always regretted that so many TLs seem so focused on the military side. I don't need to know the order of battle down to each regiment, especially when because of that the social side is barebones. Originally, and I've said this before, I planned a simple Lincoln lives TL, but believed it would not be enough. This is in some ways, I believe, one of the few TLs that's explicitly about the Union winning as hard as possible. That's key to its success, in my opinion.

I found your comment really insightful, and appreciate it immensely. I understand if you do not wish to comment any further on account of any possible anxiety, but I assure you that I'll always appreciate and read your comments and those of any other reader.

I have not read your other TL, but I must say, it would be pretty rough to compare any TL to this one. This one is like an intricate puzzle coming together to form a beautiful painting. True artistry on display, fabulous writing, deep research, and an excellent storytelling structure.

That's very high praise, thank you. I'm really glad you like this project so much. Personally, I'm rather proud of what I have accomplished, somehow managing to shock readers and maintain suspense in spite of the fact that we all know that the Union will win at the end.

I doubt they would even try to revive the plantation system, if only because it would be unfeasible in such a starkly different climate from the warm and humid South.

However, I think California does present a unique opportunity for Southern planters. The state, especially the Central Valley, is most conducive to agriculture and they would have the capital (from compensation and/or their remaining assets) to start a new life there far from the South, assuming they would be able to grow staple crops like wheat or barley instead of cotton. Maybe they'll experiment with horticulture/viticulture too?

The use of native labor would also be readily accepted by the existing Californian state government, though how extensive that would be (as opposed to using sharecroppers from Hispanic communities or other immigrants) is up to speculation.


I wonder if the South's attempts to invade Cuba or Nicaragua will sour Americans' desire for imperialism, as the South was blatantly taking over foreign lands for the explicit purpose of spreading slavery.

This won't stop people from promoting it as a way to spread civilization among the "lesser" peoples, but anti-imperialists could use people like Walker as a strong argument against the annexation of places like Cuba or Hawaii.

Them using Latino immigrants as sharecroppers is another interesting possibility that might result in greater intersectionality and cooperation in the future.

I think that were are in agreement then. I would expect something like that, too. In that case, though, I would suppose it would not be called a Civil Rights movement since they would already have legal rights. Sadly, I do not have any ideas for a name, as usual. I'm hopeless when it comes to naming things.

Well, there was Négritude in the francophone world and Indigenous movements in Latam called themselves "Indigenismo", so maybe something like... Blackness?

Another good thing about this war is that it's actually seen as the second revolution more broadly ITL.

I wonder if that would lead to the sprouting of other Democratic movements across the world ( For example the European monarchies and whatever colonies they have )

It will certainly be an inspiration. While the Americans don't conceive this as reparations the Civil War may become the example of a war that dismantles a class of oppressors and litfs up the oppressed.

I don't have anything constructive to add, I just wanted to say that this remains one of one of my favorite timelines on the site and is a delight to read.

You're very kind, thank you.

It will certainly be an inspiration but it would be difficult to take any more than symbolic heart and inspiration from the "Second Revolution" for the global subaltern; this is very much a revolution imposed from above with the full and very much armed force of the (a) centralised state behind it, whereas the only option from them is a revolution from below.

My hypothesis was that this could lead to a current of "revolutionary democracy" within socialism. Think about it, Lincoln and the Republicans were a democratically elected movement sustained by popular support, with nonetheless radicalized in the face of reaction. Compared with the usual socialist tenet that the elites will never allow for democratic revolution, this offers the hope that if a moderate movement is elected and still sparks reaction, the revolution may be achieved as long as the forces of reaction are beaten back.

Possible history has a good video talking about the positives of Brazil keeping a monarchy. The point of departure TTL is early enough, It would be nice if somehow women having more power in the South out of necessity causes Pedro II to realize his daughter can be a good Empress and therefore not be ready to accept the republican coup. It doesn't have to be one big thing that causes him to see this after all. This timeline shows that it can be a lot of little ones building up.

I am always looking for interesting changes for Latam, thank you.

 

[Red_Galiray]

On the subject of writing styles, many TLs instead frame the story by portraying some segments as extracts from a given fictional book, giving fictional authors and even publishing houses. I have never done that, and this TL instead reads as if it were a book of history in its own universe. I also kind of can't do that, given that I frequently directly quote real-world authors and books. Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL? I thought of these ones:

• The Responsibility of Action: The Last Days of the Breckinridge Government
• To Avenge the South: Inside John Wilkes Booth's attempt to assassinate Abraham Lincoln
• The Promise Must Be Kept: Lincoln and the Northern peace movement
• Winter of Woes: The Union war effort between the Peninsula and Union Mills

 

[Taunay]

"How the South Fucked Around and Found Out"

 

[Red_Galiray]

"How the South Fucked Around and Found Out"

Could be a good title for a comedic piece, highlighting how the Planter class was not ready for the war, sabotaged it from the start, and then assured their own destruction. A popular history book.

 

[Ryan lozano]

Say @Red_Galiray how will teddy Roosevelt be like after this war same with Woodrow Wilson

 

[Red_Galiray]

Say @Red_Galiray how will teddy Roosevelt be like after this war same with Woodrow Wilson

Frankly I haven't thought that far ahead. Roosevelt may be affected because his mom was a Southern sympathizer, I believe. Wilson, some people actually said he may die given that he was a child in wartime Georgia. But I feel that would be too mean-spirited. He might just be a somewhat racist professor, but with no unified, predominant Lost Cause he may never become a politician. I am not sure yet.

 

[Dragonboy]

On the subject of writing styles, many TLs instead frame the story by portraying some segments as extracts from a given fictional book, giving fictional authors and even publishing houses. I have never done that, and this TL instead reads as if it were a book of history in its own universe. I also kind of can't do that, given that I frequently directly quote real-world authors and books. Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL? I thought of these ones:

• The Responsibility of Action: The Last Days of the Breckinridge Government
• To Avenge the South: Inside John Wilkes Booth's attempt to assassinate Abraham Lincoln
• The Promise Must Be Kept: Lincoln and the Northern peace movement
• Winter of Woes: The Union war effort between the Peninsula and Union Mills

The man who preserved the union: Father Abraham.

 

[piratedude]

Re:Wilson, perhaps rather than doing something with him directly, why not change things with his father, the Presbyterian minister?

Perhaps over the course of the war he and his wife identify more and more with the poor whites that have grown resentful of the planter class. Perhaps he can be one of those few that openly support Breckinridge's emancipation policies if it would guarantee southern independence, only to be pissed that the slaveocrats would rather die owning blacks rather than live in an independent south.

 

[Whiteshore]

Frankly I haven't thought that far ahead. Roosevelt may be affected because his mom was a Southern sympathizer, I believe. Wilson, some people actually said he may die given that he was a child in wartime Georgia. But I feel that would be too mean-spirited. He might just be a somewhat racist professor, but with no unified, predominant Lost Cause he may never become a politician. I am not sure yet.

On that note, how would McKinley and Cleveland be affected as they were young men at this point and all that?

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

After the draft riots were so much worse in this time line, Cleveland's ability to pay someone to go to war for him might have been removed and he might be fighting. Or, at least those as rich as him might be forced to enter the military but allowed to be stationed somewhere supposedly away from war.

McKinley fought in the War so we shall see what happens, whatever his platoon and such were.

 

[Odinson]

On the subject of writing styles, many TLs instead frame the story by portraying some segments as extracts from a given fictional book, giving fictional authors and even publishing houses. I have never done that, and this TL instead reads as if it were a book of history in its own universe. I also kind of can't do that, given that I frequently directly quote real-world authors and books. Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL? I thought of these ones:

• The Responsibility of Action: The Last Days of the Breckinridge Government
• To Avenge the South: Inside John Wilkes Booth's attempt to assassinate Abraham Lincoln
• The Promise Must Be Kept: Lincoln and the Northern peace movement
• Winter of Woes: The Union war effort between the Peninsula and Union Mills

"Lies My Grandfather Told Me: Southern Brutality and the Myth of the Good Confederate Soldier," regarding the past talks of the narrative of the idea of a Clean Wehrmacht Myth being applied to Confederates to ease integration "My grand daddy was one of the good ones, don't ya know?")

Could be a good title for a comedic piece, highlighting how the Planter class was not ready for the war, sabotaged it from the start, and then assured their own destruction. A popular history book.

Frankly I haven't thought that far ahead. Roosevelt may be affected because his mom was a Southern sympathizer, I believe. Wilson, some people actually said he may die given that he was a child in wartime Georgia. But I feel that would be too mean-spirited. He might just be a somewhat racist professor, but with no unified, predominant Lost Cause he may never become a politician. I am not sure yet.

Alternatively, you could kill off his father and his mom remarries a Union soldier stationed in the south, leading to a radical life change. Especially if his mom also dies of say.. sickness? TB sucks big time at this period. Or both his parents die falling down the stairs in winter, leading him to being orphaned and getting taken in by a kindly, less racist couple (or just a union soldier), leading to a much less racist Wilson.

 

[Devoid]

Re:Wilson, perhaps rather than doing something with him directly, why not change things with his father, the Presbyterian minister?

Perhaps over the course of the war he and his wife identify more and more with the poor whites that have grown resentful of the planter class. Perhaps he can be one of those few that openly support Breckinridge's emancipation policies if it would guarantee southern independence, only to be pissed that the slaveocrats would rather die owning blacks rather than live in an independent south.

Attempting to redeem Wilson is certainly not a take I've ever seen on this site

 

[sparkptz]

My hypothesis was that this could lead to a current of "revolutionary democracy" within socialism. Think about it, Lincoln and the Republicans were a democratically elected movement sustained by popular support, with nonetheless radicalized in the face of reaction. Compared with the usual socialist tenet that the elites will never allow for democratic revolution, this offers the hope that if a moderate movement is elected and still sparks reaction, the revolution may be achieved as long as the forces of reaction are beaten back.

This is actually pretty true; a lot of the splintering of the revolutionary left from the late 19th century onwards and the turn towards Jacobin-inspired authoritarianism and single-mindedness was down in no small part to the lack of successful revolutions which presented a more humane alternative (the failure 1848 stinging particularly hard in this respect). A successful case study of a revolution carried out within the confines and constructs of liberal democracy could really tamp down on that splintering.

 

[Evan]

The man who preserved the union: Father Abraham.

And then a book about how his successors as President stayed the course on his policies: Father Abraham Had Many Sons.

 

[LelouchOfTheBarBrawl]

Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL?

Animals and Outcasts: Lower Class Whites, Slaves, and the Defiance of Planter Oligarchy

 

[Arnold d.c]

On the subject of writing styles, many TLs instead frame the story by portraying some segments as extracts from a given fictional book, giving fictional authors and even publishing houses. I have never done that, and this TL instead reads as if it were a book of history in its own universe. I also kind of can't do that, given that I frequently directly quote real-world authors and books. Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL? I thought of these ones:

• The Responsibility of Action: The Last Days of the Breckinridge Government
• To Avenge the South: Inside John Wilkes Booth's attempt to assassinate Abraham Lincoln
• The Promise Must Be Kept: Lincoln and the Northern peace movement
• Winter of Woes: The Union war effort between the Peninsula and Union Mills

Some ideas for history books:

• An End to Innocence: The Baltimore Campaign - A military history of the campaign and the public's reaction to the massive losses in the first major clash of the war
• Lincoln's Sword Reforged - The Rebuilding of the Army of the Susquehanna up to Union Mills
• Liberty’s Crossroads: The Third Vicksburg Campaign and the decisive battle at Liberty - self-explanatory
• Mississippi Burning: Voices from Mississippi's Darkest Days - follows after the Battle of Liberty, documenting the bloody Southern insurgency and the vigorous and harsh Federal counterinsurgency campaign from the point of view of civilians
• The Day of Jubilee: the March through Alabama - detailing the effective abolition of slavery in Alabama as Sherman cleaves through the state as well as McPherson's own march

Speaking of Teddy Roosevelt, his relationship with the South is interesting. Teddy was in the Republican Party very early on, even arguing with Jefferson Davis in 1885. Teddy regarded Jeff Daivs as an unhung traitor who stood on ‘an evil eminence of infamy’ with Benedict Arnold. Yet Teddy did say about the South, “we have nothing but praise for their heroic constancy and brilliant courage" and that "should have been treated as soon as possible like their loyal fellow-citizens." But he also “strongly object[ed] to that particular variety of prodigal son who passes his time lamenting that the husks did not hold out longer, and praising the most obnoxious of the companions who led him astray." This does fit in with a potential narrative ITTL of "clean" Southerners who were led astray by the planters.

 

[Daztur]

This is actually pretty true; a lot of the splintering of the revolutionary left from the late 19th century onwards and the turn towards Jacobin-inspired authoritarianism and single-mindedness was down in no small part to the lack of successful revolutions which presented a more humane alternative (the failure 1848 stinging particularly hard in this respect). A successful case study of a revolution carried out within the confines and constructs of liberal democracy could really tamp down on that splintering.

Well a lot of European socialist parties were well on their way to achieving socialism (or some sort of another) through the ballot box before WW I fucked things up badly. Things could end up being quite different with a few small changes, especially if Anarchism stays stronger in the far left without the influence of the USSR to make Leninism predominate, which could in time lead to more moderate forms of Syndicalism.

The specific strain of the revolutionary left that came to predominate eventually could almost certainly be butterflied. That doesn't mean all puppies and rainbows, but I do see a lot of timelines with the POD waay waay waaaaay back that still give us I Can't Believe It's Not Leninism, which I don't feel is something that should be so set in stone.

 

[Anacostia Pol]

On the subject of writing styles, many TLs instead frame the story by portraying some segments as extracts from a given fictional book, giving fictional authors and even publishing houses. I have never done that, and this TL instead reads as if it were a book of history in its own universe. I also kind of can't do that, given that I frequently directly quote real-world authors and books. Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL? I thought of these ones:

• The Responsibility of Action: The Last Days of the Breckinridge Government
• To Avenge the South: Inside John Wilkes Booth's attempt to assassinate Abraham Lincoln
• The Promise Must Be Kept: Lincoln and the Northern peace movement
• Winter of Woes: The Union war effort between the Peninsula and Union Mills

Being a tad lazy here:

• Up From Slavery: Black Reconstruction in America
• Shut Up Like Fire: The Re-Education of the Negro
• Many Rivers to Cross: Black America’s Role in the Empire of Liberty

 

[Onedotman]

Yet, just for fun, what kind of titles would history books about the war have ITTL? I thought of these ones:

• The Temple of Freedom: Washington D. C. during the Southern Rebellion (possible ATL name for the Civil War, perhaps?)
• Bleeding Bronx: The New York draft riot of 1863 and its impact
• Crush the Serpent with His Heel: A People's History of the Southern Rebellion - Civil War history written from a progressive perspective

 

[ThatRomanFanatic]

I don't need to know the order of battle down to each regiment, especially when because of that the social side is barebones.

Honestly yeah

A lot of the WW2 threads devolve into naval shell comparisons and at some point I wonder what the point of it is