Fine, in theory. However, in early 1960s. large airliners were new and expensive to purchase. The RAAF would have been faced with a considerable bill if they purchased 707/KC-135s or a similar sized refueller. The Canberra was never adapted for air-to-air refuelling, except on a trials basis (one or two aircraft - none of which was actually fitted with a means to transfer fuel from the tanker to the recipient aircraft, except with a dummy probe). Now, if TAA had adopted the French Caravale, as was planned in the late 1950s, by the late 1960s, they would have been due for replacement. They would have made an ideal tanker aircraft. However, the "Two Airlines Policy" put paid to that plan...
The J79 RAAF
- Thread starter Riain
- Start date
Fine, in theory. However, in early 1960s. large airliners were new and expensive to purchase. The RAAF would have been faced with a considerable bill if they purchased 707/KC-135s or a similar sized refueller. The Canberra was never adapted for air-to-air refuelling, except on a trials basis (one or two aircraft - none of which was actually fitted with a means to transfer fuel from the tanker to the recipient aircraft, except with a dummy probe). Now, if TAA had adopted the French Caravale, as was planned in the late 1950s, by the late 1960s, they would have been due for replacement. They would have made an ideal tanker aircraft. However, the "Two Airlines Policy" put paid to that plan...
I did have a difference article at hand from previous research:
Australian Defence Procurement, Ian Bellanyand James L. Richardson, AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1970.
https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/114892/2/b10756760.pdf
Which does talk about the F-104 situation and the issue of the engine for it, within the context of the overarching Defence procurement process and problems of the time.
Riain
Banned
Australia had neither old bombers or surplus jet airliners around in 1963, although a KC 130 was mentioned in the Hancock mission report. We bought a squadron of C130E in 1965, so perhaps a few KC130 could be added to that buy.
One was flown to NZ in 1984, not sure if that was the final RAAF Canberra flight of all.
Riain
Banned
I think I've untangled the F104 order scenario.
According to ADF serials the RAAF evaluated the F104A/C in 1954-57 and the F104G 1958-61, and publicly announced an order for 30 aircraft. According to the Canberra times the decision to order the F104 was reversed on 26 June 1957 in favour of evaluating other aircraft.
So it looks like the order for 30 F104 wasn't part of the competition that led to the selection of the Mirage III, it was an earlier decision.
According to ADF serials the RAAF evaluated the F104A/C in 1954-57 and the F104G 1958-61, and publicly announced an order for 30 aircraft. According to the Canberra times the decision to order the F104 was reversed on 26 June 1957 in favour of evaluating other aircraft.
So it looks like the order for 30 F104 wasn't part of the competition that led to the selection of the Mirage III, it was an earlier decision.
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Well, expected to be flying in a bit example. And while it has been grounded, ownership (like with the other Temora warbirds) has gone back to the RAAF.
https://www.australianflying.com.au/warbirds/temora-transfers-warbirds-to-the-raaf
Besides the Temora ones, the RAAF Museum also has a CAC Mustang and replicas of WWI designs.
Riain
Banned
Thinking about the 1957 F104 decisions, it would have made a huge difference to the RAAF. Firstly Sabe production kept trickling on because of the delay in replacement, so the 1957 order for 30 F104 would likely come at the expense of the last batch of Sabres. A 1957 order would mean a 1959-60 in service date, and if it had a similar in service life as the Mirage it would last 20-25 years. Given the limitations of the F104C 20 might be pushing it so it might get replaced by 1977-80 which means the Hornet is not a contender. Thirdly having a J79 aircraft in service might push the Vigilante, although the Atar wasn't enough to get the Mirage IV over the line.
What replaces the Starfighter in RAAF service in that period, F 16s seem like the more plausible option?
Interesting thanks.
Do you have any insight into the contemplated role for the canceled 30 F104's ?
Riain
Banned
I don't know which tyupe the RAAF ordered, the F104A which was a day fighter ordered by ADC as a stopgap for the F106 and the F105C was a tactical strike aircraft ordered by TAC, but in 1956. My guess is that the RAAF needed a supersonic fighter first and foremost as the Sabre was well and truly subsonic in an era and transonic and emerging Mach 2 fighters.
However this doesn't mean that the Sabre fleet is immediately replaced. The first 48 mirages were fighter/interceptors and the ground attack variant were the last 52. Further, sabre production was spun out because if the decision to replace it wasn't made until 1960. So I could imagine a minimum buy of 30 F104 pushing the decision to replace the 60+ Sabres out to maybe 1970 because they are useful in the ground attack role, while the F104 covers the supersonic air to air missions.
Interesting thanks...
An interesting what if would be if the remaining fighter replacement was pushed into the early 1970's.
Then the AJ/JA 37 Viggen would become available. Which would be a very capable multirole aircraft. The only numbers for a combat radius i have found with any kind of source stats it at 2000 km, which is in between the A5 and the F111C. So it has a decent range, would that be enough to cover the range requirement of the F111? If that program runs into issues at the same time as a new fighter is wanted, could the Viggen fulfill some of both requirements? It was designed to fly off smaller road bases so basing won't be too large of an issue.
Then again it relies on a central computing and command system to make do without a co-pilot. Perhaps one of the training models could serve as a basis for an Australian version?
Wow 2,000 Km combat radius for the Viggen ? I'd be curious to see the source for that.
Also reportedly Sweeden imposed some arms embargoes vis a vis the Vietnam war which may also have presented issues vis a vis Australia buying Sweedish combat air craft circa 1970.
Still the Viggen might have been a contender if the political issues could have been worked out.
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Riain
Banned
The US embargoed exports of the Viggen because of the US engine, but we did evaluate it 1971-73.
The Swedes embargoed Carl Gustav anti tank weapons because of Vietnam .
Riain
Banned
We evaluated the A in 75 and the C in 81, but chose the Hornet because by the early 80s anti ship strike had become a priority due to the retirement of the Melbourne.
It was evaluated in 1975-78 but had no fighter variant then, so was basically a small version of the newly delivered F111.
2000km as the combat radius for a fighter rather than strike/bomber type sounds rather suspicious... I'd suspect that's actually ferry range...
Riain
Banned
The F111s were ordered in 1963 and delivered in 1967, the problem was that they were delivered into storage. The path the RAAF had to take was to get these existing F111 into service, not find a replacement for them.