Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
For those who remember the old Sinatra film "Assault on a Queen" there's probably a good script in there.
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
For those who remember the old Sinatra film "Assault on a Queen" there's probably a good script in there.
All your questions will be answered, An-son!
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The US Navy bill is much more like the build planned in 1938 than the 2-ocean navy bill from OTL.
In 1938, quite a bit of the construction was to replace old ships; with the war, they may well put these into reserve instead, at least for a shoret while, but at the moment there is no naval panic. Of course, that could change
In 1938, quite a bit of the construction was to replace old ships; with the war, they may well put these into reserve instead, at least for a shoret while, but at the moment there is no naval panic. Of course, that could change
The other issues will be:
Who wins the Election in 40?
How do you man the ships/planes without conscription?
How long does it take to build the things. OTL the 2 Ocean Navy pre war was a estimated as a 10 year build program. They could do it faster but if you have started on a Montana at some point its going to be hard not to finish it and limited yard space
The issue is really manpower without a conscript navy there are between 125 and 215k personnel for the Navy and without a war that's not likely to increase rapidly ( 41 it was 380k, 42 1.25 million and on up with 500 - 750k in the cold war as a minimum.
So swapping out Standards for Iowa and Montana or Lexingtons for Essex is fine but its swap out not an addition. Realistically the US will at least keep pace with the IJN under any administration, but post Treaty era that will tend to mean better rather than more. As it stands there is 5:3 advantage in major warships, and even without the RN in the Far East that's decisive. Its not like the US needs an Atlantic fleet at the moment and the IJN is not that impressive.
Same issue applies to the Army and AAC you can authorise more kit but unless you also get an absolute increase in manpower which is a matter of choice in a volunteer force - Congress decides - you are shuffling the available manpower between specialisations.
This is a big issue, Interwar the AAC was dragging the best and the brightest into Air Power its sexy, its astronaut level sexy being in the AAC is he reason smart people join the Army so increasing the size of the AAC but not the size of the army means it becomes more and more of an air force with gate guards than a balanced force.
As related to the Lexingtons as I recall the orginal plan was to give them a through modernization once the first few Essexes had entered the fleet. And by through I mean a major overhaul of the machinery and making the aft elevator the size of the forward one on top of what Saratoga received in after being torpedoed for the first time. And there was talk of adding torpedo bulges as well
While they're at it they should remove those absurd 8" gun turrets. They might fit twin 5" DP, the way it was done in OTL.
The four turrets could be put at Wake or Guam or Midway or someplace where they might be useful.
But there will be no Victory through Air Power to attract the best and the brightest.
The Germans still have the initiative at the moment though - they're deciding where to attack and the Allies are responding. See Antwerp.
And from the Allied point of view, they've lost Poland and Denmark, lost half of Norway, been humbugged by what looked to be a masterly German deception operation (those captured documents indicating the Germans were going to attack somewhere they didn't; the Allies don't know at this point that the Germans changed plans), had a very bad scare at Sedan, seen an Allied head of state have a mental breakdown, and lost Antwerp. Plus, as we keep being reminded, at this point there's still the question of the imagined German tank reserves.
And the Allies have suffered some attrition of men and material too.
Now if the Allies hold their nerve, and Churchill and Reynaud start to put in halfway competent counter-attacks somewhere (and not wild plans involving the Friesian Islands) then the Germans are stuffed, but the Allies still need to hold their nerve and contest and then take the initiative to get to that point.
(And something is going relatively right for Hitler, down in the south - Italy is neutral, so as long as Hitler has gold and dollars spare, the Italians will for now no doubt sell him things at inflated prices... Although this really is by way of a sliver-thin silver lining to some rather ominous economic thunderclouds looming on Germany's financial horizon.)
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On the 'plus' side for the Allies, from their perspectives, holding a lot of important bits of Holland and Belgium is good, and the containment and throwing back of the German breakthrough of Sedan (with much destruction of German tanks) must have been highly satisfying.
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Driftless
Donor
In the long term scorekeeping of resources in this universe:
Say the Germans hit on all cylinders from here on out and run the British and French off the continent. Some of the items listed above become moot, some are altered for the duration
- Who got the Polish & Danish gold?
- The Germans have the Czech and Austrian wealth (of several forms), as they did OTL (Cash and factories)
- I'm assuming the Dutch and Belgian gold has been/is being shifted to safety
- The Norwegian gold stayed one step ahead of the Germans in OTL and got shipped to Britain, so I'm guessing the same here
- We've heard about the French and British gold being shipped to North America.
- The Louvre and the Rijkmuseum and many of their counterparts haven't been pillaged yet
- The Germans don't have possession of the Belgian and French coal and steel regions - yet. At least not where they're usable. (I believe Gannt has pointed out the shortages of Steel (and other key metals)
- Both sides are losing metal planes and metal vehicles at a good clip, but most of the recyclable metals are residing in Allied-controlled territory - for the present. Maybe not enough to really matter - now, but shortages are shortages.
- With the way things are going, what will Franco and Salazar do about their countries mineral shipments to the warring nations? (Tungsten ore and others)
- How do these resource changes impact what Germany sells to Italy? "Sorry, Benny, things are tough all over, ya know....."
Say the Germans hit on all cylinders from here on out and run the British and French off the continent. Some of the items listed above become moot, some are altered for the duration
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31st May 1940
31st May
Belgium
After two days, the situation around Antwerp seemed to have regained some stability. By the afternoon, the last of the Allied troops had been withdrawn from their precarious position, and the new defence lines were working. There had been worry that the retreat would have had to beat off an attack from 2nd and 9th Panzer divisions, but this had failed to occur (disappointing some of the officers of 1st Armoured who had hopes of doing some serious damage to the enemy tanks), and in fact the German advance had not been as swift as expected. It seemed from reports that apart from the panzer units, the Germans were basically slogging forward on foot.
While the staff were still sorting out the situation of the withdrawn units, an initial analysis of the losses had been prepared. The biggest lost was around four Belgian divisions. The two that had been in Antwerp itself had been captured, as had quite a few of the men manning the fortifications around the city. However around 10,000 of the men of these units had managed to escape, on foot on any transport they could get hold of, determined to carry on fighting. While they had lost nearly all of their equipment, they could be re-equipped.
The French divisions had been fighting for some days before Leoplod's action, and also lost men in the retreat. Rearguard units had been set up to allow the main body to get clear, and this had worked. The main losses were to the rear echelon, which had been surprised by the airborne attack, and to the heavy equipment such as guns which they had been forced to abandon after firing off the supply of shells. It would take a little time to rebuild these divisions, but in general the morale was good, they felt they had managed to get back to help defend France again despite the actions of the Belgian King.
The British units had suffered the least disruption; the units in front were armoured and motorised, and this had allowed them to break contact with all except reconnaissance units as they withdrew. 1st Armoured had suffered considerable tank losses - in the retreat it had proved impossible to recover many of the damaged or broken down vehicles, despite the recovery units working non-stop. However it seemed that the panzers were wary of pushing too close to them after their recent encounters, and the division was on the whole combat ready and behind the new lines as the mobile reserve. New tanks would be sent out from England over the next few days.
Despite having managed a notable breakthrough, the German forces had their own problems. While they had moved with alacrity once they hear of Leopold's actions, they hadn't been expecting it and it would take some days to reorganise the situation. Still they had moved up close to the new Allied defence lines, while they worked out what units were manning them.. There was concern about how to handle a thrust north to split their salient in two, and getting up artillery and ammunition, in particular guns that could stop the French and British tanks, was the priority.
One prize which had pleased the Panzer commanders was that they had recovered a number of the British tanks (in varying states of damage) as the British had withdrawn. While they had examples of French tanks from the earlier fighting in the Ardennes, these were the first examples of the British vehicles, and a request was put in for priority transport to send these back to Germany for a full evaluation. Of course, the officers had used the available time to crawl all over the tanks, and there was concern over how tough the vehicles were. While the Sabre tank was seen as similar to the French S-35, the heavier Cutlass was a shock - one had obviously taken over 20 hits from 37mm guns without receiving more than superficial damage.
South Africa
HMS Cumberland joined the escort at Capetown for military convoy US3 taking Australian troops to England. This convoy will deliver the first men of what is hoped eventually to be the1st Australian Corps to Britain. It had originally been intended to move the men directly to France, to complete their training and supply the rest of their equipment, but due to the fighting in France it was considered safer to finish equipping them in Britain first.
France
No. 829 Squadron FAA took their newly issued Fairey Albacore aircraft into action for the first time with attacks on German E-boats off Zeebrugge in Belgium. The E-boats had been patrolling aggressively, and had already torpedoed an RN destroyer, which had barely managed to get home. The attack sunk one E-boat and damaged two others. While the E-boats were not seen as a major naval threat, their presence has made the use of smaller ships along the Belgian coast more risky, and this attack is intended to relieve this situation. Meanwhile US-built DB-7 medium bombers of the French Air Force saw combat for the first time against German troops around Namur. While Allied losses in the air have been heavy, especially among some of the bomber formations tasked with supporting the Army, new production and the imports from the USA are starting to ease the immediate problem.
America
The American Ambassador to Argentina, Norman Armour and the American Minister in Uruguay, Edwin Wilson met in Montevideo, Uruguay to discuss what they consider to be the deteriorating political situation in Uruguay. They jointly request Secretary of State Cordell Hull to ask President Roosevelt to sent 40 to 50 warships to the eastern coast of South America as a show of force. The purpose of this is to prevent the possibility of Uruguay from forming a partnership of some sort with the German regime; while Germany has faced some reversals in Europe, their propaganda has minimised this for South American consumption, and the worry is more overt support that will cause the USA problems.. Later in the day, Hull would inform them that heavy cruiser USS Quincy was to be despatched for Rio de Janeiro, Brazil as per their request, and that she would visit Montevideo on the journey.
The US Marine Corps dispatched Captain Samuel G. Taxis to survey Midway Atoll along with a small reconnaissance party, the intention being to begin the planning for constructing a US Marine Corps presence there. The obvious reduction of French and British naval forces in the Pacific area have raised the level of concern in Washington as to the vulnerability of some of its bases there, and plans are being drawn up to increase the level of defences. The pre-war treaties are now being seen as effectively obsolete in view of Japanese actions and the world situation, although there is still a need to seem to be following them.
Belgium
After two days, the situation around Antwerp seemed to have regained some stability. By the afternoon, the last of the Allied troops had been withdrawn from their precarious position, and the new defence lines were working. There had been worry that the retreat would have had to beat off an attack from 2nd and 9th Panzer divisions, but this had failed to occur (disappointing some of the officers of 1st Armoured who had hopes of doing some serious damage to the enemy tanks), and in fact the German advance had not been as swift as expected. It seemed from reports that apart from the panzer units, the Germans were basically slogging forward on foot.
While the staff were still sorting out the situation of the withdrawn units, an initial analysis of the losses had been prepared. The biggest lost was around four Belgian divisions. The two that had been in Antwerp itself had been captured, as had quite a few of the men manning the fortifications around the city. However around 10,000 of the men of these units had managed to escape, on foot on any transport they could get hold of, determined to carry on fighting. While they had lost nearly all of their equipment, they could be re-equipped.
The French divisions had been fighting for some days before Leoplod's action, and also lost men in the retreat. Rearguard units had been set up to allow the main body to get clear, and this had worked. The main losses were to the rear echelon, which had been surprised by the airborne attack, and to the heavy equipment such as guns which they had been forced to abandon after firing off the supply of shells. It would take a little time to rebuild these divisions, but in general the morale was good, they felt they had managed to get back to help defend France again despite the actions of the Belgian King.
The British units had suffered the least disruption; the units in front were armoured and motorised, and this had allowed them to break contact with all except reconnaissance units as they withdrew. 1st Armoured had suffered considerable tank losses - in the retreat it had proved impossible to recover many of the damaged or broken down vehicles, despite the recovery units working non-stop. However it seemed that the panzers were wary of pushing too close to them after their recent encounters, and the division was on the whole combat ready and behind the new lines as the mobile reserve. New tanks would be sent out from England over the next few days.
Despite having managed a notable breakthrough, the German forces had their own problems. While they had moved with alacrity once they hear of Leopold's actions, they hadn't been expecting it and it would take some days to reorganise the situation. Still they had moved up close to the new Allied defence lines, while they worked out what units were manning them.. There was concern about how to handle a thrust north to split their salient in two, and getting up artillery and ammunition, in particular guns that could stop the French and British tanks, was the priority.
One prize which had pleased the Panzer commanders was that they had recovered a number of the British tanks (in varying states of damage) as the British had withdrawn. While they had examples of French tanks from the earlier fighting in the Ardennes, these were the first examples of the British vehicles, and a request was put in for priority transport to send these back to Germany for a full evaluation. Of course, the officers had used the available time to crawl all over the tanks, and there was concern over how tough the vehicles were. While the Sabre tank was seen as similar to the French S-35, the heavier Cutlass was a shock - one had obviously taken over 20 hits from 37mm guns without receiving more than superficial damage.
South Africa
HMS Cumberland joined the escort at Capetown for military convoy US3 taking Australian troops to England. This convoy will deliver the first men of what is hoped eventually to be the1st Australian Corps to Britain. It had originally been intended to move the men directly to France, to complete their training and supply the rest of their equipment, but due to the fighting in France it was considered safer to finish equipping them in Britain first.
France
No. 829 Squadron FAA took their newly issued Fairey Albacore aircraft into action for the first time with attacks on German E-boats off Zeebrugge in Belgium. The E-boats had been patrolling aggressively, and had already torpedoed an RN destroyer, which had barely managed to get home. The attack sunk one E-boat and damaged two others. While the E-boats were not seen as a major naval threat, their presence has made the use of smaller ships along the Belgian coast more risky, and this attack is intended to relieve this situation. Meanwhile US-built DB-7 medium bombers of the French Air Force saw combat for the first time against German troops around Namur. While Allied losses in the air have been heavy, especially among some of the bomber formations tasked with supporting the Army, new production and the imports from the USA are starting to ease the immediate problem.
America
The American Ambassador to Argentina, Norman Armour and the American Minister in Uruguay, Edwin Wilson met in Montevideo, Uruguay to discuss what they consider to be the deteriorating political situation in Uruguay. They jointly request Secretary of State Cordell Hull to ask President Roosevelt to sent 40 to 50 warships to the eastern coast of South America as a show of force. The purpose of this is to prevent the possibility of Uruguay from forming a partnership of some sort with the German regime; while Germany has faced some reversals in Europe, their propaganda has minimised this for South American consumption, and the worry is more overt support that will cause the USA problems.. Later in the day, Hull would inform them that heavy cruiser USS Quincy was to be despatched for Rio de Janeiro, Brazil as per their request, and that she would visit Montevideo on the journey.
The US Marine Corps dispatched Captain Samuel G. Taxis to survey Midway Atoll along with a small reconnaissance party, the intention being to begin the planning for constructing a US Marine Corps presence there. The obvious reduction of French and British naval forces in the Pacific area have raised the level of concern in Washington as to the vulnerability of some of its bases there, and plans are being drawn up to increase the level of defences. The pre-war treaties are now being seen as effectively obsolete in view of Japanese actions and the world situation, although there is still a need to seem to be following them.
Albacores are not really equipped for small level anti-shipping roles. Their main role was against enemy line of battle assets. Their main attack weapon is the torpedo a rather overkill weapon for E-Boats and due to the shallow draft of E-boats vs the other KM ships rather a doubtful choice,
Using a depth charge at a shallow setting of say 25ft and drop it in the path of an e-boat doing 40knts or there abouts can result in catastrophic damage, if not serious brown trousers for the crew!!