The Crusades — possible PODs?

I've always loved history, most especially European history—though my interest has often been in the Renaissance and Early Modern period, up to about ~1914. I'd never really been a huge fan of the middle ages, but lately I've been doing a lot of reading about the period and I've become really interested and immersed. I've been most especially interested in the period of the Crusades.

I've gotten that itch to get back into Alternate History, and I'm considering laying the ground work for a timeline, most likely in history book style, though I may give the narrative route a shot too, since I do love writing in that form.

I'm currently torn between two ideas, both involving polities that were born out of the Crusades: The Kingdom of Jerusalem and the so-called Latin Empire that came out of the disaster of the Fourth Crusade.

The first idea involves a different outcome for Baldwin I of Jerusalem. The later part of his reign was fraught with some difficulties because of his supposed 'bigamous' marriage to Adelaide del Vasto—while the marriage was annulled and she went back to Sicily, it definitely damaged relations between Roger II and the Outremer. Even when the Second Crusade unfolded thirty years later, Roger still refused to assist the Crusader States. Given Sicily's proximity to the Outremer, it's in a good position to aid the Crusaders compared to France or England, and I think a POD where Sicily remains in good relations with Jerusalem would be very interesting.

The second idea involves either Baldwin I of the Latin Empire being more successful at the Battle of Adrianople, so that he is not captured and the possibility of exploring a longer reign by him and what that might look like. The other idea involves an ATL reign for Henry—the second Latin Emperor, instead. Henry was fairly successful as a ruler, and had a different outlook than the other Crusader nobles in the region. He was fairly tolerant of the Greeks, for instance. Though there is the issue of him being poisoned, which we'd certainly need to find a way around.

I'm still mulling it over, but are there any other interesting PODs involving either Jerusalem or the Latin Empire that might be worth exploring?
 
The first idea involves a different outcome for Baldwin I of Jerusalem. The later part of his reign was fraught with some difficulties because of his supposed 'bigamous' marriage to Adelaide del Vasto—while the marriage was annulled and she went back to Sicily, it definitely damaged relations between Roger II and the Outremer. Even when the Second Crusade unfolded thirty years later, Roger still refused to assist the Crusader States. Given Sicily's proximity to the Outremer, it's in a good position to aid the Crusaders compared to France or England, and I think a POD where Sicily remains in good relations with Jerusalem would be very interesting.
Sicily capacity to support Latin states was always a bit limited, and it wasn't entierly due to do with Baudouin's matrimonial issues (not that it didn't really provoked a diplomatical blunder, especially giving Baudouin spent all the dowry).
See, Italo-Norman foci were rather set on Byzantine Empire, raiding its coastal cities during the Crusade, but as well along the African coast : it eventually went quite against Crusader geopolitical interests, up to a diplomatical and geopolitical agreement between Sicilians and Fatimids.
It doesn't help that Roger II was undergoing a more or less complex conflict with Rome, which certainly didn't favoured a Sicilian participation to the Crusade.

Now, I think you're underestimating the strategical importance of Latin States relations with France and the HRE, and in a somewhat lesser way, England : Sicily was wealthy but not that populated, at least for what mattered possible levies. What Yerosolemite kings needed were military reinforcement before anything else, and their whole matrimonial policy went to ally themselves with non-royal aristocracy to ensure their support against Arabo-Islamic counter-attacks.

Long story short: while wealthy and relatively near, Sicily had a different Mediterranean policy than Latin States and no much men to give away; when France had no conflicting interests and was a seemingly inexhaustible reinforcement pool.

The second idea involves either Baldwin I of the Latin Empire being more successful at the Battle of Adrianople, so that he is not captured and the possibility of exploring a longer reign by him and what that might look like.
It would still go downhill : in 1204-1205, Baudouin I focused more on beating up Boniface de Montferrat, than really preparing his empire to defense. It doesn't help that Greeks began to rebel, and that his army began to be decimated by epidemics in Macedonia.
Of course, his political power was limited enough that the Council of the Empire, made up by crusader leaders, forced him to give Boniface his territories back, making the imperial demesne a small principalty limited to Thrace and some north-western anatolian holdings, with territories theoritically depending of the Empire (especially lands conquered after 1205, as the Duchy of Athens or the Kingdom of Achaia) ignored any kind of imperial authority.

Frankly, Baudouin wasn't a really talented ruler for the Latin Empire (the task was impossible, admittedly) : heavy-handed politics, wishful thinking (I won't even go on how crusader divided Anatolia among themselves before even landing there) and poor strategies due to an obfuscating ignorance of local geopolitics. I'd even think that maintaining him on the throne, rather than having his more pragmatic and skilled brother, would be a way to hastening the fall of Latin Romania.

Speaking of which...

The other idea involves an ATL reign for Henry—the second Latin Emperor, instead. Henry was fairly successful as a ruler, and had a different outlook than the other Crusader nobles in the region. He was fairly tolerant of the Greeks, for instance. Though there is the issue of him being poisoned, which we'd certainly need to find a way around.
Henry inherited a poor situation : everything mentioned above was still fully present, altough he beneficied from strategical insight (focusing first on the Bulgarian-Greek alliance), and from contextual events (such as the timely death of Boniface de Montferrat). Rather than tolerent, I'd rather say pragmatic and efficient : the heavy handed plunder of Romania by crusaders antagonized Greeks, and the claims against Bulgarians allowed to form a dangerous alliance, whom bases had to be dealt with.

I wouldn't give too much credit to the poisonning accusation : it was a common fear, among medieval courtly culture, to be poisoned, and it was seen where it was not more often than not. Now it's true that his death wasn't exactly mourned within Latin Romania : but again, the job was impossible and many candidates refused the crown when presented. Eventually, I don't see Henri doing much better than Robert before the rise of Byzantine successors states : no reinforcements worth mentioning, no real or formal unity among Latin states...

I'm still mulling it over, but are there any other interesting PODs involving either Jerusalem or the Latin Empire that might be worth exploring?

- Successful expeditions of 1100 and 1101.
At the notable exceptions of ambitious crusaders such as Raimond IV, the majority of the Crusade simply turned back home, its duty fulfilled. Crusaders were scattered in geographical pockets around Jerusalem, Edesse, Galilea and Antioch, in small groups of ten or twenty miles by castle, while Fatimids prepared a counter-offensive.
You had, then, some "post-Crusade" expeditions made up of nobles that didn't took the cross (or that did and renounced, or that did and went to Jerusalem). The firstz were mostly an Italian expedition from the first part, and another French expeditions (lead by Etienne de Blois that abandoned the Crusade at Antioch).

While the 1100's expedition was initially to go for the Holy Land, the French leaders decided that it had to go eastwards to free Bohémond de Tarente and Tancrède de Hauteville that were captured and held near Trabzon. The expedition managed to take Ancyre/Ankara, but was soundly defeated by Turks that waited for them later.

The two other expeditions of 1101, with the same objective to go for Holy Land, met a similar fate, suffering from the same issues than the First Crusade and the post-Crusade of 1001 : meaning poor logistics, poor supplies, guerilla, lack of water.

But if, somehow, Kilij Arslan's power was broken, you might have more reinforcements and a slightly safer road trough Romania to Syria. But how to have it is debatable : by 1100, it's clearly too late. Maybe if Etienne de Blois doesn't flee, and you end up with Byzantine support at Antioch. Depending on how things goes, you might see a safer road trough Anatolia, tough Latins might not be able to count on Antioch or Armenian alliance ITTL.
Still, it's the best possibility to have 1100 and 1101 expeditions, that would sanctuarize Latin Syria more quickly, possibly allowing future reinforcements to be more regular and more importants.

- Baudouin II siring a son (courtesy of @Byzantion)
If Baudouin II still dies as IOTL, with the military role of yerosolemite kingship was particularily stressed on, Baudouin's son would be too young to rule : I suspect you'd have at least some passing tought about making one of Baudouin daughters' husbands king of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, the reign of Baudouin II will be shakier, as one of the conditions of his return in 1125 after having been captured by Ortoqids was that he gave Yvette as an hostage : as he couldn't give another of his daughters (all married, and all tied to his political/diplomatical network) and that giving away his sole sone would be out of question...

We might see the king not being released at this point before a longer time, which in this case could mean an earlier establishment of nobiliar domination in Jerusalem, especially out of the High Council, with Guillaume de Bures/de Gallilée as regent, possibly turning out, from trusted man of Baudouin, as his main ally or rival in Syria.
 
Barbarossa not drowning on the way to the Holy Land during the Third Crusade would be a big one.
It's often mentioned, but I can't help thinking it's overrated and oversold.

While Barbarossa was a skilled and firm emperor, he was a ruthless man that ended to antagonize his opponents more than needed. Not only he was an old man at this point, for all its skills and even with his (probably) thousands of men*, the rivality between Crusaders (mostly French and English IOTL, even after Philippe's abandon), the ongoing civil war among poulains, all of this would have made Barbarossa's reinforcements useful but probably a bit wasted : it doesn't help, for what matter supplies, that Barbarossa had no access to ships, which were the essential way to maintain a viable logistics at this point.

Not to say it would bring no changes : I could see the emperor leading a successful coastal operation, re-taking Acre and settling the Yerosolemite sucession.

But I don't think it would be a big PoD as you're labelling it : the scorched earth tactics of Saladin would probably forces Barbarossa to split his army as much as desunion among Crusaders, and the presence of Saladin in the hinterland, waiting for Crusader-Latin armies to wear out, would likely prevent any significant decisive battle or conquest past the foothills.
Would the reinforcement brought by Barbarossa be enough to reconquer Jerusalem? In the case Barbarossa side with enough nobles (probably French, giving the hostility they displayed to Richard) it would allow to re-edit Richard tentative in 1191, as in taking a city which was admittedly not that well defended, as the coastal dismentlement that forced to keep a strong presence there would be less of a problem.

I doubt, however, that the reconquest of Jerusalem would last : the defenses of the city were destroyed and if it allows an easy capture, it makes keeping it quite hard, as poulains pointed out. At best, the Yerosolemite Kingdom could take back Jerusalem, but the city is fairly undefensible and too peripherical at this point to be hold off more than, at best, a decade (without speaking about raids), while the institutional and political structures of the kingdom are still going to be fairly unstable.

*8,000 men being an acceptable guesstimate.
 
@LSCatilina With the kingship of Jerusalem, wouldn't Roger II's geopolitical interest change somewhat? I would think that he would focus on taming the aristocracy with his outside forces and transporting settlers to Outremer in order to make up for the manpower shortage.
 
@LSCatilina With the kingship of Jerusalem, wouldn't Roger II's geopolitical interest change somewhat?
Not much : even before the falling out with Baudouin, Siculo-Norman Crusaders weren't exactly that represented in the First Crusade. Altough one of its main component, it was probably less than what Hugues de Vermandois and Raimond de Saint-Gilles gathered each. It was possibly an exceptional (politically-wise) efforts since when the Principalty of Antioch was threatened, altough it was only nominally part of the Yerosolemite Kingdom, Siculo-Normans doesn't seems to have cared, in spite of the kinship they shared with its ruler.

Eventually, Norman Sicily was more focused in Romania (as it was the case since decades) and in Africa : that they had their own Mediterranean interests, as Byzantine did, didn't made them more likely to support Latin States, but relatively less so.

I would think that he would focus on taming the aristocracy
How? The Yerosolemite Kingdom was concieved, since the beggining, as an "idealized" feudality, complete with largely independent nobility. At the very least, taming it would require a political takeover. Even within his realm, Roger II had to fight hard against an independently minded nobility : Jerusalem was this up to eleven.

with his outside forces and transporting settlers to Outremer in order to make up for the manpower shortage.
Remember that southern Italy wasn't exactly overpopulated then, giving away settlers would have meant weakening more or less its kingdom. Note that reinforcement wasn't usually "loaned" by rulers, but a charge taken by nobles or miles out of social-religious duty. More powerful the king, more likely royal intervention (as in the Third Crusade) rather than gradual reinforcement.

Eventually, the problem wasn't transportation (Maritime communi did that quite well as well as the suppliement), than the cost of it and the motivation of Latins nobles to stay in Syria (generally, the crushing majority didn't remained long).
In fact, a better PoD could be having southern Italy remaining divided in various principalties, offering a situation closer to what existed in traditional crusading pools of France and western Germany.
 

Md139115

Banned
I wanted to write a TL based on this POD, but since my actual story was going to take place nearly 400 years after the POD, I don't mind if someone else uses it as a base for a relatively closer TL.

On the eve of the battle of Montgisard, Saladin's fastest camel comes down with a cold (or indigestion, or chills, or some other disease camels get) resulting in Saladin depositing it in the baggage train. This leaves him unable to escape as in OTL when the Knights Templar smash through the center of his army. With his death, the Islamic world would devolve back into the violent war for control that had previously existed prior to Saladin, while the Crusaders would have more time to consolidate with additional immigrants from Europe, more funds in the treasury, more castles being built at strategic choke points, etc.
 
We had a thread last month discussing what would have happened if Stephen of Blois didn't leave the (First) Crusade, and as a result the Byzantines were restored to Antioch rather than the city falling to Bohemond. Although there was debate about exactly what form Byzantine interests would have taken in the east after this, there was general agreement that the Byzantine-Jerusalemite relationship would have been improved, which strikes me as an interesting POD if you were looking for a more successful Crusading period generally.
 
We had a thread last month discussing what would have happened if Stephen of Blois didn't leave the (First) Crusade, and as a result the Byzantines were restored to Antioch rather than the city falling to Bohemond. Although there was debate about exactly what form Byzantine interests would have taken in the east after this, there was general agreement that the Byzantine-Jerusalemite relationship would have been improved, which strikes me as an interesting POD if you were looking for a more successful Crusading period generally.

Exactly the POD I used for my TL :) I agree that a continued political friendship between "Byzantium" and the Crusaders could benefit both parties, and possibly ensure a longer survival of the Frankish states in the east. TBH, I got the TL out of the premise that only fundamental changes in the course and aftermath of the First Crusade could have preserved the Jerusalemite kingdom. I don't know if even a more successful 2nd Crusade (with the capture of Damascus) would help so much if the Zengids remained at large and succeeded in conquering Egypt.

Anyway, regarding the OP, I found both ideas interesting. About Baldwin and Adelaide del Vasto, I remember reading somewhere (probably "Jerusalem, a Biography" by Simon Montefiore) that, as Baldwin had no sons, he intended to have Roger as his heir. This circumstance alone could have produced a substantial divergence if Roger became King of Jerusalem, even if I'm inclined to agree with LSCatilina that Sicily alone would not suffice to preserve the kingdom against the Islamic monarchies.

Regarding the 4th Crusade, there are not TLs about this that I remember now (There is one about a 4th C. that avoids the sack of Constantinople), so it could be interesting. I'm not sure if the Latin Empire can avoid onslaught on the hands of the ressurgent Bulgarians, but some developments might have perhaps taken the Empire of Nicaea out of equation. Without the Laskarids restoring the Empire, perhaps one of the Frankish states could survive with some Italian assistance.
 
Sicily capacity to support Latin states was always a bit limited, and it wasn't entierly due to do with Baudouin's matrimonial issues (not that it didn't really provoked a diplomatical blunder, especially giving Baudouin spent all the dowry).
See, Italo-Norman foci were rather set on Byzantine Empire, raiding its coastal cities during the Crusade, but as well along the African coast : it eventually went quite against Crusader geopolitical interests, up to a diplomatical and geopolitical agreement between Sicilians and Fatimids.
It doesn't help that Roger II was undergoing a more or less complex conflict with Rome, which certainly didn't favoured a Sicilian participation to the Crusade.

Well, yes. I know that the Norman's were definitely more focused on the Byzantine Empire as well as North Africa, but more positive relations with Jerusalem wouldn't hurt. Though from what I can see, I suppose Baldwin I took the marriage for the material benefits—an influx of cash as well as badly needed troops. Adelaide del Vasto was a little old circa 1112 to give Jerusalem an heir.

Now, I think you're underestimating the strategical importance of Latin States relations with France and the HRE, and in a somewhat lesser way, England : Sicily was wealthy but not that populated, at least for what mattered possible levies. What Yerosolemite kings needed were military reinforcement before anything else, and their whole matrimonial policy went to ally themselves with non-royal aristocracy to ensure their support against Arabo-Islamic counter-attacks.

Long story short: while wealthy and relatively near, Sicily had a different Mediterranean policy than Latin States and no much men to give away; when France had no conflicting interests and was a seemingly inexhaustible reinforcement pool.

No, I certainly recognize the importance that Western Europe played with the Outremer—it is where the original crusaders had come from, and many had family ties back in the west, as well. Given that women tended to have longer lifespans in the Outremer compared to the men, the numerous heiresses made an interesting fount of honor for the King of Jerusalem to bring noblemen and their resources into the kingdom—and in the time of Baldwin IV, the marriage of his sisters were also of paramount importance, as the right matches could bring support from abroad. I still think that it would be better to have Sicily as a friend, rather than neutral or a foe, though you're right in the case that what the Kings of Jerusalem needed most were possible levies and troops—though it's obvious there are always going to be constraints.

I should say that I'm not necessarily looking for PODs to give a surviving Kingdom of Jerusalem or Latin Empire. Merely PODs that would be interesting to explore. I think the Crusader positions in the Outremer are probably not tenable in the long run.

It would still go downhill : in 1204-1205, Baudouin I focused more on beating up Boniface de Montferrat, than really preparing his empire to defense. It doesn't help that Greeks began to rebel, and that his army began to be decimated by epidemics in Macedonia. Of course, his political power was limited enough that the Council of the Empire, made up by crusader leaders, forced him to give Boniface his territories back, making the imperial demesne a small principalty limited to Thrace and some north-western anatolian holdings, with territories theoritically depending of the Empire (especially lands conquered after 1205, as the Duchy of Athens or the Kingdom of Achaia) ignored any kind of imperial authority. Frankly, Baudouin wasn't a really talented ruler for the Latin Empire (the task was impossible, admittedly) : heavy-handed politics, wishful thinking (I won't even go on how crusader divided Anatolia among themselves before even landing there) and poor strategies due to an obfuscating ignorance of local geopolitics. I'd even think that maintaining him on the throne, rather than having his more pragmatic and skilled brother, would be a way to hastening the fall of Latin Romania.

True.

Speaking of which... Henry inherited a poor situation : everything mentioned above was still fully present, altough he beneficied from strategical insight (focusing first on the Bulgarian-Greek alliance), and from contextual events (such as the timely death of Boniface de Montferrat). Rather than tolerent, I'd rather say pragmatic and efficient : the heavy handed plunder of Romania by crusaders antagonized Greeks, and the claims against Bulgarians allowed to form a dangerous alliance, whom bases had to be dealt with. I wouldn't give too much credit to the poisonning accusation : it was a common fear, among medieval courtly culture, to be poisoned, and it was seen where it was not more often than not. Now it's true that his death wasn't exactly mourned within Latin Romania : but again, the job was impossible and many candidates refused the crown when presented. Eventually, I don't see Henri doing much better than Robert before the rise of Byzantine successors states : no reinforcements worth mentioning, no real or formal unity among Latin states...

Honestly—did any of the Latin Emperor's inherit a decent situation? It seems like doomed project from the start. But yes, Henry was definitely pragmatic, that would be better the word. It is definitely a difficult situation to be in, but I think it's a pretty interesting idea to explore, even if it's doomed. Like I said, I'm not looking for PODs to create a lasting Latin Empire or Kingdom of Jerusalem. Latin Romania was definitely a mess, and you're right that a lack of reinforcements is a major issue. If anything, the Fourth Crusade makes things worse because it divides the already scarce Crusader resources between the Outremer and the Frankokratia. I feel like Henry is probably the better brother to explore versus Baudouin, but it's definitely stacked against him. Even if Henry manages to cobble something together, it would probably be squandered by his heirs/



- Successful expeditions of 1100 and 1101.
At the notable exceptions of ambitious crusaders such as Raimond IV, the majority of the Crusade simply turned back home, its duty fulfilled. Crusaders were scattered in geographical pockets around Jerusalem, Edesse, Galilea and Antioch, in small groups of ten or twenty miles by castle, while Fatimids prepared a counter-offensive.
You had, then, some "post-Crusade" expeditions made up of nobles that didn't took the cross (or that did and renounced, or that did and went to Jerusalem). The firstz were mostly an Italian expedition from the first part, and another French expeditions (lead by Etienne de Blois that abandoned the Crusade at Antioch).

While the 1100's expedition was initially to go for the Holy Land, the French leaders decided that it had to go eastwards to free Bohémond de Tarente and Tancrède de Hauteville that were captured and held near Trabzon. The expedition managed to take Ancyre/Ankara, but was soundly defeated by Turks that waited for them later.

The two other expeditions of 1101, with the same objective to go for Holy Land, met a similar fate, suffering from the same issues than the First Crusade and the post-Crusade of 1001 : meaning poor logistics, poor supplies, guerilla, lack of water.

But if, somehow, Kilij Arslan's power was broken, you might have more reinforcements and a slightly safer road trough Romania to Syria. But how to have it is debatable : by 1100, it's clearly too late. Maybe if Etienne de Blois doesn't flee, and you end up with Byzantine support at Antioch. Depending on how things goes, you might see a safer road trough Anatolia, tough Latins might not be able to count on Antioch or Armenian alliance ITTL.
Still, it's the best possibility to have 1100 and 1101 expeditions, that would sanctuarize Latin Syria more quickly, possibly allowing future reinforcements to be more regular and more importants.

- Baudouin II siring a son (courtesy of @Byzantion)
If Baudouin II still dies as IOTL, with the military role of yerosolemite kingship was particularily stressed on, Baudouin's son would be too young to rule : I suspect you'd have at least some passing tought about making one of Baudouin daughters' husbands king of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, the reign of Baudouin II will be shakier, as one of the conditions of his return in 1125 after having been captured by Ortoqids was that he gave Yvette as an hostage : as he couldn't give another of his daughters (all married, and all tied to his political/diplomatical network) and that giving away his sole sone would be out of question...

We might see the king not being released at this point before a longer time, which in this case could mean an earlier establishment of nobiliar domination in Jerusalem, especially out of the High Council, with Guillaume de Bures/de Gallilée as regent, possibly turning out, from trusted man of Baudouin, as his main ally or rival in Syria.

Thanks! All great ideas. My idea with Baldwin I of Jerusalem was the possibility of Baldwin II having a son—born in 1120 instead of Ioveta. It could definitely be very interesting, since, asyou said, if he's captured as IOTL, he can't very well use his son and heir as a hostage.
 
My favorites are...
-Malik Shah I not being assassinated in 1092. His survival could have at least delayed the succession war that divided the Seljuk Empire and gave some wiggle room to the first crusader states.
-Nur-Ad-Din not dying in 1174. Had he lived, he could have enlarged the Zengid state to the borders of, roughly, the OTL ayyubids. How he would deal with the crusader states is still a bit fuzzy to me, so i welcome opinions.
-The byzantines winning the Battle of Myriokephalon and crushing the Sultanate of Rum. This could butterfly away the Fourth Crusade's diversion to Constantinople, and provide the byzantines with a better continental road to help the crusader states.
-Baldwin IV of Jerusalem not having leprosy. For one with a crippling illness, he did quite a lot, but his accomplishments were undone because he could not produce an heir.
-Boniface of Montferrat being elected as Latin Emperor rather than Baldwin I. I hear Boniface was quite competent, so maybe he could have prevented the early disasters against the Bulgarians and provided the Latin Empire with a stabler base.
 
Well, yes. I know that the Norman's were definitely more focused on the Byzantine Empire as well as North Africa, but more positive relations with Jerusalem wouldn't hurt. Though from what I can see, I suppose Baldwin I took the marriage for the material benefits—an influx of cash as well as badly needed troops. Adelaide del Vasto was a little old circa 1112 to give Jerusalem an heir.
A siculo-norman marriage was indeed a great way to fill an empty treasury, but maybe less for troops as such, than having access to their significant fleet : what plagued Crusaders was the relatively bad suppliement they had access to and that was only regularily obtained trough Italian fleets. Not that mean wouldn't be welcomed, especially with Dodequin's and Fatimids' generalized attack, but I think the logistical part was really important for Baudouin.

Now, it's more than probable that the tensions between him and the Latin patriarch Dagobert certainly did him no favour when it comes to have his marriage with Adelaide being considered as bigamous : but, on the other hand, he wasn't going to accept that Jerusalem turning into a patriarcal state under pontifical overlordship.
Of course, Roger II was really infuriated at how is mother was repudiated (and incidentally how the Yerosolemite succession would be taken from him, as he was supposed to be Baudouin's heir), but the relative easiness on how Baudouin repudiated her, point to a lack of strategical interest of the sicilian alliance in the late 1100's IMO, altough Adelaide's family in northern Italy had a lot of regional influence too.

It's uneasy to really pin-point the benefit of a siculo-yerosolemite alliance in the late 1100's, but even if the marriage holds in face of the clerical opposition and new geostrategical situation, I doubt the agreement would be acknowledged by yerosolemite nobility, which was really independent minded and favoured their own : maybe Roger II would try to enforce his, arguably stronger, claims ITTL, but I don't really seem him pursuing this while he would still have to deal with his own rebellious nobility in Italy.

Now, if you manage to have Norman Italy remaining more or less divided (possibly a timely death of Roger II), without a strong Kingdom of Sicily being created (or no kingdom at all), you might end up with a situation where a divided and more French-like feudal geopolitics, and a Norman nobility more willing to take the cross than what happened with an unified southern Italian ensemble : you'd still have a focus on Romania and Africa, but less strongly than IOTL, IMO.

I should say that I'm not necessarily looking for PODs to give a surviving Kingdom of Jerusalem or Latin Empire. Merely PODs that would be interesting to explore. I think the Crusader positions in the Outremer are probably not tenable in the long run.
In this case, what about a late Kingdom of Jerusalem turning up as Latin Romania did?
With a longer-lasting Mongol presence in the Near East, remnants of Latin States (which were already under the strong influence of italian maritime city-states) whom cities were ruled by more ir less formal nobiliar councils (especially in Acre or Tyre) could end up as Genoese protectorates, if Embarici manage to get the upper hand in Antioch, or if Genoese win the War of Saint Sabas early enough to prevent the historical damages.

Honestly—did any of the Latin Emperor's inherit a decent situation?
Ah, ah, ah, no.
Their empire was made of suck, they had barely any authority outside Thrace and they never had remotly half the military ressources needed to keep Greeks and Slavs at bay. It wasn't easy to find a dupe to take the crown, for obvious reasons.

If anything, the Fourth Crusade makes things worse because it divides the already scarce Crusader resources between the Outremer and the Frankokratia.
Meh, you had barely diversion of crusading resources in Romania and few were really interested nursing it on life support. Venetians, Genoese and Napolitains did intervened largely in Latin Romania, but it can't be considered as crusader efforts.
So to speak, it was wasted time for Crusaders, but not much more.

Even if Henry manages to cobble something together, it would probably be squandered by his heirs/
Forget the heirs, the Latin nobility in Romania was even less managable than in Syria : they would gladly ignore imperial calls to help if they could gain a modicum of advantage doing so.
 
-Malik Shah I not being assassinated in 1092. His survival could have at least delayed the succession war that divided the Seljuk Empire and gave some wiggle room to the first crusader states.
Crossposting my earlier answer.

Divisions among Seljuk were less the entiere result of Malik Shah's death than a feature of Seljuk politics : Malik's sons and grandsons were de facto independent governors of their respective provinces already before his death. And of course, the whole political situation which looked like a mixmash of a wasps' nest and a game of Clue (the caliph, with the poison, under the tent) : it already took his father and his vizeer, and if it failed you can bet his life it would be attempted again.

That being said, if Malik survived this assassination attempt long enough and, in the same time, prevented his familial puzzle of an empire to split thanks to his sheer political and military skills (the Seljuk ensemble wasn't doomed to split and fall as soon as Malik's corpse would be cold)

Well, you could arguably see a different Crusade, altough maybe not for what might be considered as obvious reasons : with a stronger and more threatening Seljuk presence in Anatolia, Byzantines could be strong-armed giving a deeper and more stable support to Crusaders even when it would become an annoyance as they were politically and militarily IOTL.
In the same time, the strength of a roughly unified Seljuk Empire might mud the Crusade into Anatolia and maybe Little Armenia, without real way for Crusader to go beyond the region : at this point, you could even have Fatimids lending an hand.

I agree, of course, that it makes a Crusader advance, let alone conquest, of Syria unlikely in the immediate aftermath : but the Seljuk Empire is structurally going down at this point, and that Arabo-Islamic princes wouldn't really correctly asset the nature of Crusade as they didn't IOTL. So, while Crusades would likely end up stopped before they could enter Syria, having Crusader forming some peripherical states to Byzantium (inside or outside its borders) may be doable, as well a renewal of advance in Syria with time : how long would it last and how successfully, tough...

-Nur-Ad-Din not dying in 1174. Had he lived, he could have enlarged the Zengid state to the borders of, roughly, the OTL ayyubids. How he would deal with the crusader states is still a bit fuzzy to me, so i welcome opinions.
Saladin more or less inherited, as you said, Nuradin's polities, but as well abitions, policies and tactics, at his benefit. I'm not sure we would see a major difference there for what matter Crusader States (altough, for Arabo-Islamic policies...)

-The byzantines winning the Battle of Myriokephalon and crushing the Sultanate of Rum. This could butterfly away the Fourth Crusade's diversion to Constantinople, and provide the byzantines with a better continental road to help the crusader states.
At this point, Crusader favoured the maritime way : it was quicker and less logistically problematic.
Not to say it wouldn't change anything, far from it.

In the short term, it wouldn't have immediate consequences (as the historical defeat didn't), but eventually it would make the later byzantine expeditions that took place historically being less about stabilizing the situation, and more ambitious on taking back coastal and central Anatolian, with a greater pressure on Turks that I would see not conquered, but submitted. As for Latin Syria, at this point, Turks represented no strategical concern, at the contrary of the Syro-Egyptian build up.

Consequences would be more visible, eventually, on imperial succession.

Manuel was one of the few Byzantine Emperors Latins held in reverence and put in a almost general good light by Latin chroniclers, as he managed to fight back Latin's ambitions while winning a good part of Latin elite by adopting, or at least trying to, several of their customs and institutional features when he dealt with them, seeing (as few emperors did)both the threat of Latins AND their potential as auxiliaries as well, and eventually living up to part of his expectations not only within the Empire, but in Oultremer and southern Italy.
Now, the working relationship with various Latin entities prooved shaly : the deep disunity and fierce independent culture of Latin nobles prevented a real overlordship to blossom, with big cultural and political gaps (the expeditions in Egypt, with the conflicting byzantine and yerosolemite interests, are a good exemple), but it was still a working relationship.

If we have a smoother succession, with Manuel policies apparently working out, allowing whoever inherits the purple to follow a similar policy towards Latins (open, but firm) especially with a prestige due to Myriokephalon's consequences, I think you might avoid some of the cultural and political backleash that followed the Slaughter of Latins.

While Angeloi pointed at Latins as scapegoats for more or less everything (alamanikoi taxes are a good exemple of the pointing-and-disnouncing) did a great job increasing the tensions there, when Kommenoi and especially Manuel would have turned that into a more bilateral policy, nott adverse to Latins.
You might end up with at least a more or less benevolent neutrality acknowledging Constantinople's power (without that enforcing its overlordship). You won't get rid of raising tensions, especially when it come to Italian influence, but you could get away with a lot of most bloody and conflicting issues for a short while).

Baldwin IV of Jerusalem not having leprosy. For one with a crippling illness, he did quite a lot, but his accomplishments were undone because he could not produce an heir.
I think Baudouin IV's reputation to be overrated as well.
Less because of his skills, that still were relatively average (altough it had a good political intuition), than because his leprosy provoked some real unstability due to his inability to fulfill his military role (which was really stressed on in yerosolemite kingship).

Now, in a TL where he doesn't contract leprosy, it's certain that in spite of not-that-hyped skills, it would end up in a better situation.

Crossposting (again, sorry) from another thread.

Ayyubid takeover of Egypt and Syria is a given ITTL. Meaning the whole set of military pressure, harassment and threat of reconquest is still there, and it's not something easy to deal with. While during Amaury's reign, Latins could count on the important rivality between whoever controlled Egypt and whoever controlled Syria, this strategy is moot then.
We could argue that Amaury would live longer than IOTL, due to the absence of stress knowing his successor contracted leprosy (an illness that, for what matter medieval public opinion could be compared to the perception of AIDS in the 80's), possibly allowing a smoother succession.

I do think, tough, that Amaury's expedition in Egypt isn't really going to work out better than a glorified raid, probably significantly less so than the expedition of 1167-1168 before the clear hostility of the population, the Ayyubid control (altough Saladin doesn't have control of Northern principalties) and general weariness of Latin resources (the Armenian expedition wasn't exactly stellar).

The lack of more or less constant intrigues around Baudouin, due to his sterelity and his incompetency (in the medical sense) is certainly going to embetter the political situation of the kingom, making it more unified. It's a relative observation, tough : the Yerosolemite Kingdom was concieved as an idealized feudal entity, with a top-down/down-top vassalic relationship, meaning that the great feudataires had a large independence from the crown, and even vavassors (vassals of vassals) could intervene in the High Court (which shared much of the rulership with the king who, at times, was stuck with a more or less purely redistributive, military and of course vassalic role).

The interesting part there is which alliances Baudouin and which matrimonial unions he would eventually favour as, as it was said, it would be of great importance to gain military support.
An alliance with Montferrat still seems likely, due to their ties with Capetians and Honestaufen, with a union with one of the three daughters of Guilhèm V, instead of a marriage with the IOTL Guilhèm Lungaspada. One could argue, tough, that this union would be particularily anambitious.
If not Montferrat, then maybe Bourgogne with an union with Mahaut daughter of Eudes. The point is that it would search support among French and Imperial nobility.

Saladin is still going to have the upper hand on the conflict with Latin States by sheer ammount of ressources, political strength and skills. Maybe ITTL, tough, a safe and sound king that can assume the military function of his charge, and with a significantly (if not wholly, as pointed above) realm might simply do better, and avoid giving Saladin too much opportunities, while the kingdom in deep crisis up to a *Third Crusade IMO.
But with a significantly better hold for Poulains and Crusaders (in the same time, it's not that hard to think of a better hold than IOTL Third Crusade situation), it just might turns out better. Possible no civil war, more unified Poulains and more territory are good assests : we might even see a recapture of Jerusalem ITTL.

-Boniface of Montferrat being elected as Latin Emperor rather than Baldwin I. I hear Boniface was quite competent, so maybe he could have prevented the early disasters against the Bulgarians and provided the Latin Empire with a stabler base.
That wouldn't happen : Boniface de Monferret was one one hand, suspected being byzantophile by other crusaders, due to his familial and clientele relations with the imperial family, and on the other hand suffered from being an imperial vassal, while French crusaders (forming the main part of the expeditions) really frowned upon the idea of being under a possible imperial suzerainty trough Boniface's own situation.
 
Whew! LSCatilina, you've given me a lot of information to sort through. I love it.

I'm not really interested in any PODs involving Baudouin IV—yes, him being healthy would have been a major benefit, but I agree with LSCatilina's assessment. The Ayyubids are still going to rise up and that's going to be difficult for Jerusalem to deal with.

I would be very interested in hearing more about the potentialities of Baudouin II having a son, and especially the effects it might have of his elder sister Melisande—certainly no marriage to Fulk?
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Eventually, the problem wasn't transportation (Maritime communi did that quite well as well as the suppliement), than the cost of it and the motivation of Latins nobles to stay in Syria (generally, the crushing majority didn't remained long).

Here's an idea: What about giving Yerosolemite land to European peasants? They could settle there and form a recruitment pool for the Crusader States.
 
I think an interesting PoD could be to have Alexios 'take control' of the Peoples Crusade. Essentially welcoming them, and turning them into an army to complete their pilgrimage, and then defend the Holy Land. Whilst an inconvinience, taking the men at least means somewhere from 8000-15000 troops, that for the cost of training and outfitting them can be used to back up the rest of the First Crusade (helpfully stopping Stephen of Blois from leaving - in theory), whilst the rest of the Pilgrims help with logistics and labouring until the Holy Land is freed - and they get first pickings as part of a Komnenid Theme. All the while also labouring to repay the damage done in .. Belgrade? I think? If it happened and worked, thats a substantially larger joint Crusader-Byzantine-Pilgrim force. I'd like to think that it would also be a bit of good PR for the Romans - forgive some foolishness in exchange for service, and work together to retake the Holy Land.
 
Here's an idea: What about giving Yerosolemite land to European peasants? They could settle there and form a recruitment pool for the Crusader States.
Wasn't it done IOTL? Most of the poor pilgrims, that found themselves without much ressources (not having benefited from the relatively limited pillage) eventually ended up to work the land, and even if it was in more reduced ammounts, the following crusades provided with some minor settlement.
Casaux, worked by Muslims and Christians (both Latins and Oriental, including population coming from Arabo-Islamic states) were essentially concieved as a way to work a damaged region and to ensure suppliement, not as some late roman colony.

Still, Frankish settlement was relatively present in the proper demesne of yerosolemite kings (around Jérusalem and Acre), the county of Jaffa and the lordship of Naples/Naplouse, the lordship of Toron, more or less territories surrounding the royal demesne eventually.

The idealized feudality of the Latin States tended to ignore peasant allods, as it tended to be the case in the regions Crusader came from, it wasn't entierly absent, as possibly in the County of Tripoli (arguably, the peasant allod was not uncommon in Provence and Languedoc) : but all of the allods repertoried were nobiliar allods, or at best bourgeois allods.
Creating Latin casaux and allods out of blue would have been problematic in the first two decades, anyway : you had little control over campaignsand as Fatimids raids continued, it would have been the safest way to see them attacked, raided, plundered.

@DrakeRlugia
I found some mentions about Roger II promising ships and suppliement to Louis VII, and his son's participation along Balkans. Which was probably not entierly out of the goodness of his hert, giving he raided the heck out of western Romania's coast not long before, but shows that the fall-out with Jerusalem wasn't as complete Siculo-Normans couldn't give some support (as said above, on logistics mostly) to Crusaders.
 
And where will these peasants come from?
More crusaders, as the aformenioned successful 1100 and 1101 situation could create by carrying small bands of peasants with them. Of course, that would be minor, and most of the clearly latinized parts were found along the coastal towns.

Unless you are a free tenant,I don't expect you would be able to move around freely.
That's because, all respect due, you don't have a very good perception of medieval societies. The distinction between serf and fre-tenant tended to be growingly juridical, and while people there tend to assume maniorial society was akin to Old South when it came to chasing running off peasants, it was relatively rare witnessing so. I'll pass the details, between more or less legal salvetats or clearings, the more or less active poaching of serfs by neighbouring lords, etc.
Now, it wasn't widely common to have serves moving in numbers before the XIIth century, but it have something to do with the fact they were tied to work land to subsistance, and that risking to loose a land you couldn't be deprived of (contrary to a free-tenant) could be problematic, especially if (as it happened in many cases), your family slowly increased the land they worked trough various relationships (there's cases of a serves being trusted, in addition of his land, other manioral and abbotal lands).

The problem wasn't Alexios, and probably never really was. Apart from Raimond IV (and only because his own pledge was as vague as possible), nobody really felt they were bound to any kind of pledge to the basileos, didn't as much as flinched an eye before the depradation caused by a large number of unruly men (on which 10, 000 men is below the most conservative guesstimates I saw myself for the Battle of Ascalon alone, Ferdinand Lot accounted for 9,000 footmen and 1,000 miles : something between 20,000 and 30,000 is more credible, accounting for footmen,pilgrims, and all the show) especially after the damages caused by the previous expeditions.

It took litterally weeks, as Latins raided the suburbs, of negociations on which Alexios required the vassalage of Latins which first refused, using more or less poor excuses, then softly accepted after Alexios gave them presents (that were needed to support their own armies*), and because they needed willy-nilly imperial authorisation to cross the sea. It didn't prevented Tancrède to insult the basileos.

*At the exception of Raimond IV, the wealthiest noble present, that brought enough for himself and his army. He initially refused to pledge anything, and did it (exceptionally vaguely) only because everyone did.


Long story short, there was no way to turn Crusader lords as vassals of the emperor, not a chance to see Alexios (the PoD having byzantine support in Antioch is interesting, tough, and discussed there and in another threads) wasting his men and ressources to fund unruly mercenaries past Antioch when he realize that they don't work for him.
 
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