Surviving Paganism and Reformation

[Legolas]

Suppose that an officially Pagan country, or at least an important populous region, survives in Europe for about 200 years more than in OTL (so until about 1600). Questions:

1. How could this happen with a PoD post 1200 AD?
2. How would this affect the Reformation of the Catholic Church? Would it happen at all in any recognisable form?
3. How would the Reformation affect the relationship between a Pagan country and the predominantly Christian Europe?

My personal takes on the three questions:

1. A possible PoD would be a decisive defeat (similar to OTL's Battle of Žalgiris/Grunwald in 1410) of the Teutonic Knights, effectively ending the Eastern Crusades; that might allow Lithuania to become a dominant power in the region without any outside help (no unions with Poland). Alternatively if the Mongol invasion is far more succesful than in OTL, the Scandinavian and northeastern European Christians might be separated from Rome for a prolonged period and revert back to old Pagan ways. If one of such neo-Pagan countries later led the reconquest of Mongol-conquered lands, Christianity might not reclaim many parts of Europe.

2. The Reformation might be quickened, if anything. A prolonged conflict between Roman Catholics and Pagans would cause many people to doubt the power of the Church authority and thus turn away from the Church. A *Protestant movement might form as a frontier between Pagans and Catholics.

3. I feel quite positively about this. The *Protestants would not be adamant about crusading and would realise that cooperation with the Pagan country (or countries) will give much more benefit than fighting them. Thus Paganism might survive until the present day.

What do you think?

 

[Sachyriel]

Can 'Crusader' states count as 'European'?

 

[Legolas]

I would say yes, unless they are so far away that they essentially lose any contact with Europe.

 

[Condottiero]

S
2. The Reformation might be quickened, if anything. A prolonged conflict between Roman Catholics and Pagans would cause many people to doubt the power of the Church authority and thus turn away from the Church. A *Protestant movement might form as a frontier between Pagans and Catholics.

Luther considered the catholic church was moving to paganism. So a reformed church would be further from pagans than catholic or be completely different from OTL.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

For a surviving Pagan culture to survive in Europe, it should be shared by more than one country, for one country isn't strong enough to withstand frequent Christian Crusades, and prosper. It should be should persist in economically prosperous places. And it would be best to begin this development prior to the Second Millenium. By the twelve century, the only remaining pagan countries were few, and far between. One should begin this cultural consolidation movement as early as the 700's. Prior to the atrocities of Charlemagne in Saxony.

 

[bill_mchale]

Suppose that an officially Pagan country, or at least an important populous region, survives in Europe for about 200 years more than in OTL (so until about 1600). Questions:

1. How could this happen with a PoD post 1200 AD?
2. How would this affect the Reformation of the Catholic Church? Would it happen at all in any recognisable form?
3. How would the Reformation affect the relationship between a Pagan country and the predominantly Christian Europe?

My personal takes on the three questions:

1. A possible PoD would be a decisive defeat (similar to OTL's Battle of Žalgiris/Grunwald in 1410) of the Teutonic Knights, effectively ending the Eastern Crusades; that might allow Lithuania to become a dominant power in the region without any outside help (no unions with Poland). Alternatively if the Mongol invasion is far more succesful than in OTL, the Scandinavian and northeastern European Christians might be separated from Rome for a prolonged period and revert back to old Pagan ways. If one of such neo-Pagan countries later led the reconquest of Mongol-conquered lands, Christianity might not reclaim many parts of Europe.

2. The Reformation might be quickened, if anything. A prolonged conflict between Roman Catholics and Pagans would cause many people to doubt the power of the Church authority and thus turn away from the Church. A *Protestant movement might form as a frontier between Pagans and Catholics.

3. I feel quite positively about this. The *Protestants would not be adamant about crusading and would realise that cooperation with the Pagan country (or countries) will give much more benefit than fighting them. Thus Paganism might survive until the present day.

What do you think?

I don't think that the prolonging of the Eastern Crusades would hasten the Reformation; if anything, it might slow it down. While the Crusades were going, it gave Nobles and Royals outlets for their ambitions. Once they were over, they were confronted with the fact that they were in some sense subservient to the Church.

Further, the Protestants were just as intolerant of people with different ideas as Catholics were. They fought each other, they burned "witches" and heretics and they fought the Church.

--
Bill

 

[Broz]

it could happen that christians identify more with chatolicizm exactly becouse theres a group of non-chatolicks they want to diversify from

and the above said is true about Protestants not being wery nice people
actually if you look at the records and statistics, it turns out Protestants were proper paranoid bastards
most of the wich hunts took place on in protestand lands, and were mostly started and maintained by the indipendent free citisenry, and aided by the printing press
also Protestants were and i supose are more oposed to idolatry and demigods than Chatolics

but culturaly this would be wery intersting, also it would be interesting to hipotesise wich culture would take more elements from wich
i can imagine the puritanic protestant culture being flooded by pagan elements, to fill the void

 

[MerryPrankster]

A surviving pagan state might try to play a neutral-mediator role in the warring Catholic and Protestant wars and could provide a refuge for Catholic dissidents from Protestant areas and Protestant dissidents from Catholic areas.

Hmmm...here's an idea.

The Anabaptists were persecuted by both Catholics and (other) Protestants. Perhaps large numbers of them take refuge in the pagan state (uber Lithuania?) and over the years, convert most of the public to their creeds?

We might have some weird polygamous, communistic Anabaptist/pagan Lithuania in addition to Protestant North Germany and Catholic South Germany.

 

[abas]

1. Possible POD would be to avoid strife in ruling house of Lithuania by the end of 14th century.

A possible PoD would be a decisive defeat (similar to OTL's Battle of Žalgiris/Grunwald in 1410) of the Teutonic Knights, effectively ending the Eastern Crusades; that might allow Lithuania to become a dominant power in the region without any outside help (no unions with Poland).

This would be hard to achieve before 15th century. The order was weakened by social development in its lands, not by that batlle. IMO even without that defeat the order would be hardly the threat in end of 15th century.

Alternatively if the Mongol invasion is far more succesful than in OTL, the Scandinavian and northeastern European Christians might be separated from Rome for a prolonged period and revert back to old Pagan ways. If one of such neo-Pagan countries later led the reconquest of Mongol-conquered lands, Christianity might not reclaim many parts of Europe.

This is hardly possible. To separate Scandinavia from Rome they must be to conquer effectively all Europe and even then they wouldn't be isolated enough.

2. The Reformation might be quickened, if anything. A prolonged conflict between Roman Catholics and Pagans would cause many people to doubt the power of the Church authority and thus turn away from the Church. A *Protestant movement might form as a frontier between Pagans and Catholics.

Protestant movement started in the lands that were far from frontier with nonchristians.

3. I feel quite positively about this. The *Protestants would not be adamant about crusading and would realise that cooperation with the Pagan country (or countries) will give much more benefit than fighting them. Thus Paganism might survive until the present day.

What do you think?

Also possible cooperation between Catholics and Pagans against Protestants. In any way IMO real politic would more than religion.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Also possible cooperation between Catholics and Pagans against Protestants. In any way IMO real politic would more than religion.

That's entirely possible, if the Protestants are seen as more radical, intolerant, and potentially dangerous than the Catholic Church.

A Catholic envoy could be sent to the pagan king and point out that if the Protestants take over, the Crusades could start up again. Given the Ayatollah-like nature of at least two of the Reformers (Calvin and Zwingli), I would not be surprised.

 

[abas]

That's entirely possible, if the Protestants are seen as more radical, intolerant, and potentially dangerous than the Catholic Church.

A Catholic envoy could be sent to the pagan king and point out that if the Protestants take over, the Crusades could start up again. Given the Ayatollah-like nature of at least two of the Reformers (Calvin and Zwingli), I would not be surprised.

I thought more that they could cooperate on practical base neglecting religious issue this wasn't uncommon. e.g. archbishop of Riga was long time allied with pagan Lithuania against the Teutonic knights