After the 1848 Revolution in Germany, the Frankfurt Parliament attempted to create a single German nation and offered the crown to Frederick William IV, he refused saying he did not want a "crown from the gutter." Was Frederick William IV the only option the parliament considered? I'm sure someone wanted an Austrian, but was there anyone else?
Someone Else Picks up the "Gutter Crown"
- Thread starter da Racontor
- Start date
Not really I think, anyone else wouldn't have the political or military power to back the Parliament and that was what the Parliament was looking for.
I agree but let's have the King of Bavaria or Elector of Hanover give it a try and see what happens just for fun!
That would not be a good thing. Again, if Austria, Prussia or both object to its formation, Germany is well and truly screwed, and heaven help you if it was also objected by other GP's (Russia or France for one.)
Hannover was a kingdom in the 19. century.
But Hannover, Bavaria, Württemberg, Saxony or Baden or ... lack the hypothetical power to be considered for such a crown.
And I highly doubt that the German Nationalists really want to offer it to anyone foreign.
Not sure about Bavaria. The Hohenzollerns saw a need to reach an agreement with the Wittelsbachs BEFORE Wilhelm assumed the imperial crown, although Ludwig II still absented himself from the coronation since...well...it's Ludwig being Ludwig.
Not to mention that in 1848 Bavarian princesses are the queens of Prussia and Saxony, as well as mother to the soon-to-be emperor of Austria; the crown princess of Hannover is a cousin/niece. Really, marry Max II to Olga Nikolaïevna as was originally considered and the Bavarian candidature will probably have Russian backing (plus then they'll be related to the Württemberger royal family). Could be fun
Bavaria is powerful enough, that you need to make concessions to them and negotiate if you want to achieve some German Unification. An alliance between Bavaria and various middle-sized German states (like Saxony, Hannover ...) could prevent German Unification. But I doubt that Bavaria is powerful enough and has on its on the interest to start a project to gain German Unification.
It is important for any German unification that Russia isn't angered and won't do anything (or even better) support you. Maybe Bavaria has here good chances.
But if Bavaria tries to start adventures on its own, it is likely that this will provoke Prussia and Austria. If Prussia and Austria are against you, it seems unlikely that other German States will support you, since they would also fear the risk involved with such an adventure.
Also to start such adventures we need a government which want to support German Nationalism and cooperate with revolutionaries. In OTL several liberal reforms happened in Bavaria during the 1848-1849 revolutions and the king abdicated because of a scandal. But the new king Maximilian II. Joseph didn't accepted the constitution created in Frankfurt. Maximilians foreign policy centered on forging cooperation between the medium sized German states to create a third force next to Austria and Prussia in Germany. It seems as if he wasn't an adventurer or a great soldier (which seems necessary to throw the kingdom of Bavaria into such a great adventure which likely leads to war) but a more cautious ruler. Another reason, why Bavaria could be opposed to the revolutionaries, is that the Pfalz (an exclave of Bavaria) rebelled against Bavaria and had a short time revolutionary government between Mai and June 1849 (therefore the revolution endangered the territorial integrity of Bavaria).
In OTL later in 1850 Bavaria cooperated with Austria against Prussia (Bavaria shortly occupied the electorate of Hesse to support Austria against the Erfurt Union by Prussia).
If we have an hypothetical small Germany without Austria and without Prussia, Bavaria wouldn't dominate it. This construct would be more likely a confederacy of various middle sized countries. Such a construct would give the various monarchs far more power and lead to a really weak central government. I doubt that German Nationalists would be happy with that.
Bavaria is also weaker because the industrialization started stronger and earlier in the Rhineland compared to Bavaria.
According to this graphic (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Staaten_im_Deutschen_Bund_1848_Einwohner.svg ) Bavaria had a population of 4,5 million in 1848, while Prussia had 16 million. (This graphic probably only depicts the population inside the German confederacy).
As a result, I conclude that it is highly unlikely that Bavaria would accept the crown.
I also conclude that Bavaria wouldn't start own initiatives for German Unification as long as Prussian and Austrian opposition is likely.
But Bavaria would try to cooperate with neighboring middle sized countries to balance and maintain some power compared to Prussia and Austria.
I'd say that without Prussian or Austrian support unification is virtually impossible, you don't need them to not oppose you, you need active support and if you have active support either of those 2 country would become the leading power, thus making unification by any smaller power impossible by 1840s.
Which is why France would think having a "third Germany" is *awesome*
Oops, forgot about it and then wiki'd it. So what if King Ernie Gus of Hannover gets a promotion, to Kaiser Ernie Gus?
In theory, because of the familial relationship, the UK may like that. On the other hand, the British in 1848 saw Prussia as the most natural and appropriate leader of Germany.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
... Only without the Rhineland, being in Prussian hands and all.
That's the biggest obstacle to any call for a tripartite division of The Germanies, so far as I can see: Prussia controls two large regions that would play merry hell on the third part's security and usefulness/border to an exterior patron. Perhaps you could get a revolution in the Prussian Rhineland leading to them breaking off from Brandenburg proper? The question is how to bring that about
I assume that any “mini-Germany” of sorts will be able to take the extremely rebellious Rhineland away - and in the act severely depress the Prussian economy.
If it’s strong enough not to collapse to invasion, it’s strong enough to take the Rhineland.
Rhineland was hardly homogenously against Prussia, heck among its Protestant Westphalian subjected I doubt you could cast a label of rebellious.
who ever does do this "Im the king of Germany"
Prussia and Austria "HAHAHA no."
The end
Prussia and Austria "HAHAHA no."
The end
FillyofDelphi
Banned
Well, Vienna is busy fighting a war with Sardinia-Peidmont and cracking down on rebel Hungarians. In order for this to work, I imagine they'd have to be getting walloped more decisively; perhaps the Russian "Gendarmie of Europe" is leaving them to stew in their own juices so far as the Magyars are concerned. Of course, if Austria is losing the non-Germanic poritions of their Empire left and right than they might be more sympathetic to the idea of adopting the "Gutter Crown" themselves
I imagine that if Austria collapses, Prussia would take power as they tried to do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_Union
Hadn't Ernest also been deeply unpopular in Britain? People may not be thrilled to see him getting a promotion.