Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Finbarr the Fair]

The problem with Caen is it is the most strategically important objective in Normandy being the main transport hub which is why 21st Panzer division was based there and all German reinforcements pretty much had to go through it resulting in it being relatively easy to reinforce and it being heavily contested.

Absolutely

While the British did get held up by the stronger than expected fortifications guarding the main road to Caen on day 1 it was unlikely that it could have been taken on DDay without either a far weaker German defence and/or a vastly stronger British landing force.

Again, yes. The thrust from the beachhead could have been pressed earlier and a bit harder but without additional forces the 21st Panzer blocking force would probably still have stopped it. Though it’s counterattack might have gone far worse!

Could having Victors instead of Cromwells helped the 7th Armoured Division’s “right hook” succeed ? I’m dubious as Villiers-Bocage was a failure of discipline and tactics, not equipment.

I’m tempted to call for more Churchills on the Caen front and earlier.

 

[diesal]

I’m dubious as Villiers-Bocage was a failure of discipline and tactics, not equipment.

I seem to recall Montgomery criticising the ex 8th army divisions in Normandy, assuming the Allies land in Normandy and so the fight for Caen goes as per OTL, the men fighting will have more experience than those of OTL 7th armoured having taken fewer casualties. Their morale will likely be higher as well, not having been in more or less continuous action for the whole war.

 

[kelgar04]

I seem to recall Montgomery criticising the ex 8th army divisions in Normandy, assuming the Allies land in Normandy and so the fight for Caen goes as per OTL, the men fighting will have more experience than those of OTL 7th armoured having taken fewer casualties. Their morale will likely be higher as well, not having been in more or less continuous action for the whole war.

Also adding to this a lot of the units at that point were tired as well given everything they have gone through OTL up to that point they had been in the fire constantly.

This time however given the better experince, more victories and the like they will probably be in better nick mentally which will probably help.

 

[MattII]

Again, yes. The thrust from the beachhead could have been pressed earlier and a bit harder but without additional forces the 21st Panzer blocking force would probably still have stopped it. Though it’s counterattack might have gone far worse!

With a load of tanks with 75mm HV guns and 4 inches of armour, sloped, there's no 'might' about it. I doubt they'll get half as far as OTL.

Could having Victors instead of Cromwells helped the 7th Armoured Division’s “right hook” succeed ? I’m dubious as Villiers-Bocage was a failure of discipline and tactics, not equipment.

Well they'll have both better equipment, and tanks crews with better training and more experience.

I’m tempted to call for more Churchills on the Caen front and earlier.

The Victor will have thicker armour (4 inches, but sloped, so the apparent thickness is greater, and some rounds will actually bounce off), be faster, and carry a bigger gun.

I seem to recall Montgomery criticising the ex 8th army divisions in Normandy, assuming the Allies land in Normandy and so the fight for Caen goes as per OTL, the men fighting will have more experience than those of OTL 7th armoured having taken fewer casualties. Their morale will likely be higher as well, not having been in more or less continuous action for the whole war.

Better equipment too, which will raise their morale still further.

 

[david31]

In Italy, at least, the Poles were stealing vaguely Polish German POWs as a source of ‘recruits’.

I heard that in Normandy the Polish Armoured Division spearheads were followed by trucks loaded with British battledress for use by Poles conscripted into Osttruppen battalions by the Wehrmacht and taken prisoner. A bit of a Hobsons Choice probably.

 

[kelgar04]

With a load of tanks with 75mm HV guns and 4 inches of armour, sloped, there's no 'might' about it. I doubt they'll get half as far as OTL.


Well they'll have both better equipment, and tanks crews with better training and more experience.


The Victor will have thicker armour (4 inches, but sloped, so the apparent thickness is greater, and some rounds will actually bounce off), be faster, and carry a bigger gun.


Better equipment too, which will raise their morale still further.

Better kit does equal better morale and training since they will work harder because their kit is decent enough to be worth the effort, also better kit means the user live longer and becomes more proficient in it operation. Think how many soldiers of all specialisation’s that have lived to be rotated back home to train up various intakes as well as the officers who can share their experience.

 

[Salamander]

I heard that in Normandy the Polish Armoured Division spearheads were followed by trucks loaded with British battledress for use by Poles conscripted into Osttruppen battalions by the Wehrmacht and taken prisoner. A bit of a Hobsons Choice probably.

They did find a Korean soldier who'd been conscripted by the Japanese & captured by the Soviets at Khalkhin Gol; he was then "conscripted" into the Red Army from the Gulags by the Soviets & captured by the Germans during the fighting in the western Soviet Union; finally, he was again "conscripted" into the Wehrmacht, stationed on the Atlantic Wall in Normandy, where he was captured by the Western Allies.

 

[duckie]

They did find a Korean soldier who'd been conscripted by the Japanese & captured by the Soviets at Khalkhin Gol; he was then "conscripted" into the Red Army from the Gulags by the Soviets & captured by the Germans during the fighting in the western Soviet Union; finally, he was again "conscripted" into the Wehrmacht, stationed on the Atlantic Wall in Normandy, where he was captured by the Western Allies.

LOL, I have seen his photo on the net of him being procesed as POW. I always wonderd what the GI that accepted his surrender must have thought.. (What the F**k, Japs...). It would have been even an greater story if the US army also "conscripted"him to act as an Intrepeter in the Pacific. Imagening the story of "Going around the World in Four Armies....

 

[AlanL]

the men fighting will have more experience than those of OTL 7th armoured having taken fewer casualties. Their morale will likely be higher as well, not having been in more or less continuous action for the whole war.

From the memoirs I've read I get the impression the Desert Rats' problem in Normandy was having too much experience, not too little.

 

[MattII]

From the memoirs I've read I get the impression the Desert Rats' problem in Normandy was having too much experience, not too little.

I assume you mean because they were used to desert conditions? I'm not sure that's as much of a problem here, as they'll have less experience in desert warfare, and far more time to retrain in European terrain.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I assume you mean because they were used to desert conditions? I'm not sure that's as much of a problem here, as they'll have less experience in desert warfare, and far more time to retrain in European terrain.

No

Just tired of being at the sharp end.

 

[AlanL]

I assume you mean because they were used to desert conditions? I'm not sure that's as much of a problem here, as they'll have less experience in desert warfare, and far more time to retrain in European terrain.

No, as Finbarr said, just burned out

 

[MattII]

No

Just tired of being at the sharp end.

No, as Finbarr said, just burned out

Well they're not going to be nearly so bad here.

 

[diesal]

From the memoirs I've read I get the impression the Desert Rats' problem in Normandy was having too much experience, not too little

It was the type of experience they had, 3+ years of slogging vs 2-3 years of training with a winning fight against the Italians and a few Germans .

 

[M35Mako]

The prevailing attitude among former desert hands was "we've done our bit, someone else should take over". They have been constantly fighting since 1940, and looked at the fresh troops in Britain (and in particular, the Americans) and thus were annoyed they once again were in the lead. As spring 1945 approached, some of 7th Armoured was near mutiny because they were just sick of being the "best" of the army and thus constantly being on the frontlines.

 

[vetinari]

I seem to recall Montgomery criticising the ex 8th army divisions in Normandy, assuming the Allies land in Normandy and so the fight for Caen goes as per OTL, the men fighting will have more experience than those of OTL 7th armoured having taken fewer casualties. Their morale will likely be higher as well, not having been in more or less continuous action for the whole war.

The ex-8th Army men were considered, "too canny" after they had been granted and received home leave in the UK before Normandy. It meant they were unwilling to become casualties basically. They felt they had, "done their bit" and it was now the turn of those who had remained in the UK. It was a problem the UK faced, along with a manpower shortage that affected the British Army which resulted in several divisions worth of RAF being issued green serge uniforms and informed they were now in the Army.

 

[MattII]

Well hopefully the situation is better here. It certainly should be.

 

[kelgar04]

The ex-8th Army men were considered, "too canny" after they had been granted and received home leave in the UK before Normandy. It meant they were unwilling to become casualties basically. They felt they had, "done their bit" and it was now the turn of those who had remained in the UK. It was a problem the UK faced, along with a manpower shortage that affected the British Army which resulted in several divisions worth of RAF being issued green serge uniforms and informed they were now in the Army.

I imagine with less loses compared to OTL both in the desert and Asia will help with the manpower issues.

 

[MattII]

I imagine with less loses compared to OTL both in the desert and Asia will help with the manpower issues.

More men pulled out of France and Greece too, and almost none lost in Crete. That's at least a division's worth of men by itself.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I imagine with less loses compared to OTL both in the desert and Asia will help with the manpower issues.

Which probably means some long service units can be put in reserve or, where possible under the British Regimental system, been refreshed by more new recruits and experienced personnel used as trainers and cadres for other units.