Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Cryhavoc101]

There's also the warhawks, which will be coming on-line eventually.

About 450 odd Warhawks went to Africa by Dec 1941 - with no campaign on going there many of those can instead go to the Far East (as can more Hurricanes and other aircraft types)

The then P40 was not as good as the Spitfire, Hurricane and ME109 at high Altitude but would be fine at the lower altitudes that air battles were fought at in the Far East - the then Japanese aircraft were also without the high altitude performance enjoyed by the British and German fighters

 

[allanpcameron]

About 450 odd Warhawks went to Africa by Dec 1941 - with no campaign on going there many of those can instead go to the Far East (as can more Hurricanes and other aircraft types)

The then P40 was not as good as the Spitfire, Hurricane and ME109 at high Altitude but would be fine at the lower altitudes that air battles were fought at in the Far East - the then Japanese aircraft were also without the high altitude performance enjoyed by the British and German fighters

The majority of Curtiss types before Dec 1941 were Tomahawk I/II, P40B/C. (Same as the AVG in Rangoon at this point).
It was only at the end of 1941 that the first P40Es were arriving in Middle East called Kittyhawk by the British.
One of the differences here is that OTL a batch of Tomahawks were shipped to the Soviet Union in one of the early PQ convoys (which the Soviets weren't keen on). Here Hurricanes were sent to Murmansk and the Tomahawks to Singapore (90 odd crated arrived with 18th Division roughly IIRC).
So, you'll be seeing the Commonwealth squadrons transferring from Buffaloes to Tomahawks, with slightly ahead of OTL arrival of Hurricanes flown off carriers. The first Kittyhawk squadrons are just becoming operational in the Middle East. And yes more RAF reinforcements are coming.
Allan

 

[allanpcameron]

15 January 1942. Singapore.

RAF Seletar had been on high alert since the early hours of the morning. The arrival of Hurricanes flown off HMS Ark Royal and Formidable meant that just about every RAF fighter on Singapore Island were involved in Combat Air Patrols to make sure the new arrivals could set down and be dispersed without enemy interference. These CAPS including the first operational Tomahawk squadron (No 3 Squadron RAAF). The exception was the six surviving Sea Hurricanes of HMS Ark Royal which flew back to their ship. Landing shortly after the other aircraft were launched, they were quickly turned around so that there was some extra fighter protection for the aircraft carrier. The surviving Swordfish from HMS Ark Royal, along with four RAAF Hudsons, had flown out, the Hudsons to guide the Hurricanes from their launch points to the airfields and the Swordfish to re-join the carrier. HMS Ark Royal (with 24 Hurricanes) and Formidable (with 48 Hurricanes) had approached to within the range of the Hurricanes which were flown off, meeting up with the Hudsons who guided them to the three airbases that were waiting for them. No 30 Squadron landed at Seletar, 135 and 136 Squadrons landed at RAF Sembawang and No 258 Squadron landed at RAF Tengah.

The lessons of the ‘Club Runs’ to Malta had been implemented on Singapore, so that although the Hurricanes were configured for ferrying, they retained their guns and some limited ammunition just in case. Of the seventy-two aircraft that were due to launch, four failed to take off for various mechanical reasons, another two were forced to ditch and were lost with their pilots, five had problems with their landings, though only one of these was written off. The Japanese had taken the bait of some cruisers and destroyers which had made a show off the coast north of Penang bombarding the area around Alor Star. The ships had arrived during the night, fired off their main guns for a few minutes and then dashed back out to sea. A squadron of Dutch Buffaloes operating out of Medan on Sumatra were on hand to protect the ships as they withdrew at high speed.

It took most of the morning for the Japanese bombers to react to the bombardment and send off reconnaissance aircraft. The ships were well out of range by the time a strike could be launched. It was later in the afternoon that Japanese aircraft appeared heading towards Singapore, but no air raid occurred, they attacked the rail line around Kuala Lumpur instead.

The sixty Hurricanes that arrived safely were somewhat less that Air Vice Marshall Pulford had expected. There had been two issues. Although HMS Ark Royal and Formidable had plenty of experience of flying off Hurricanes to Malta, the restrictions of how many aircraft they could carry meant that HMS Formidable carried the great number of Hurricanes, while HMS Ark Royal retained enough Swordfish, SeaHurricanes and Fulmars for protection and limited strike potential. The other two squadrons expected to be sent to Singapore (No 17 and 232) had been unloaded at Ceylon and were moving by stages to Rangoon to reinforce the defenders of Burma.

Under the cover of the air umbrella Admiral Phillips wanted to bring part of his force into Singapore, rather than going all the way back to Ceylon for refuelling. The arrival of HMS Nelson and Warspite, with HMS Ark Royal, the cruisers Exeter and Gloucester, the destroyers HMS Electra, Express, Encounter, Greyhound, Jupiter, Juno, Kashmir and Kelly was a sight to behold. The ships would be refuelled and sail to Pontianak to pick up the two Indian Battalions, then rendezvousing with elements of the Dutch fleet, they would sail to Balikpapan. Once the troops were off-loaded the fleet would attempt to confront any Japanese force in the Makassar Straight.

The rest of Phillips’ fleet, led by HMS Prince of Wales, would sail back to Ceylon with the aircraft carrier HMS Formidable, which would then carry on, returning to the Mediterranean. HMS Indomitable was expected to arrive at Ceylon around the end of March, followed by HMS Illustrious in April or May. HMS Hermes was still under refit at Durban and would be available around the same time as HMS Indomitable. By that time all the carriers would be carrying Martlet fighters for protection. The arrival of the four old R Class battleships at Ceylon would be complete around the same time as the two aircraft carriers.

 

[kelgar04]

Well the RN will have a more formidable force out east im this timeline.

 

[allanpcameron]

Well the RN will have a more formidable force out east im this timeline.

Its funny because trying to keep things relatively realistic from a tiny POD becomes a virtuous circle. The big change for the RN is a better Mediterranean campaign. Ark Royal and Barham were available to add to Nelson, POW and Repulse, most the cruisers I used hadn't been sunk post Crete. HMS Warspite is able to leave the Med because a: It wasn't damaged ITTL meaning it isn't coming from America and b: Queen Elizabeth and Valiant aren't sitting on their hulls in Alexandria. ITTL it was Indomitable and Illustrious that collided leaving America and now being repaired (and new radar fitted) before heading for the Indian Ocean. Formidable again not damaged in May in Med.
Not sure when a virtuous circle becomes a wank, or as has been stated oft times on this forum, OTL 39-42 was an axis wank until Midway, Stalingrad and El Alamein!

 

[justinmil22]

that's just what happenes when you make a butterfly flap it's wings, the Wallies did so bad otl that even a small change makes it become a wank for any country

 

[Triune Kingdom]

As OP said, once the British got themselves sorted out, they really start doing considerably better then IOTL. Consoderably. Though, from their POV, situation is still bad?

I mean, ITTL by the May '42, RN is going to have 4 CVs in area, a considerable force, even if limited in its capabilities. The HMS Hermes refit, what does it entail, with the age of the ship and the war going on I doubt we are going to see any major changes. It is too old, small and slow, not really suited for frontline combat, especially not going toe to toe with KB. At best, we could see it be in better shape then it was in years, perhaps with radar or two, some more AA guns and maybe that massive mast/crowsnest is removed. Though, while it would be nice to see it survive ITTL, the best use for it would be convoy escort duties, scouting and ASW, freeing up the more modern CV/CVE for other uses.

WRT the AC numbers carried aboard RN CV, especially the Illustrious and Indomitable. While everybody and their mother knows about compromises which these designs had to make, which reduced their CAG, it also limits the number of sorties they can make. I mean, an individual CV can only carry so much Avgas or ordinance or spare planes, and those stores are further limited by amounts of Armour British put on their Illustrious class CVs. Deck parking and outriggers are great for increasing the airgroups, but if they can not be sustained at sea, in combat, then they are effectively useless. Even with Singapore in British hands, RN is still going to need some sort of a Fleet Train, to allow their ships to operate at sea for longer periods of time.

Great work, keep it up!

 

[MattII]

Often the issue wasn't the carriers themselves, but the aircraft. The Sea Hurricane f.e. didn't have folding wings, while the Seafire had rather narrow-track landing-gear. In fact, I don't think Britain produced a standout single-seat carrier fighter in the entire war.

 

[wally]

I feel that the hardest part with the story will now be allan limiting the allied gains as of too much of a wank when this is just the result of where they go from having almost won North Africa. Even those this looks great to us, to the ALT British if will still be a hard victory with them facing a very bad economic future and lost of empire.

With the British not having to yet again rebuild their army in NA and the RN not at breaking point, this gives so many options for 1942.

• Having the forces to stop the Japanese in Far east hard while keeping alot of DEI.
  • The butterfly here is the dutch growing their forces with LL which might be used later post Overload to free Dutch ealier. Interesting butterfly on how the Dutch react to DEI locals freeing them. Hopefully better than the French with the FNA troops.
• Aegean campaign to learn amphibious assaults and then leaving the rest to the Free Greeks with air support.
• Taking French North Africa with US support
• Sicily campaign in the later part of 1942, to finish clearing the Med and the fact they be the pressure to use the troops in area.
• Taking Thailand maybe parts of french indochina at the end of 1942.

Down side of where this leaves them wil be heavy pressure from the US to do something in France in 1943.

 

[MattII]

I feel that the hardest part with the story will now be allan limiting the allied gains as of too much of a wank when this is just the result of where they go from having almost won North Africa. Even those this looks great to us, to the ALT British if will still be a hard victory with them facing a very bad economic future and lost of empire.

Well a lightning victory in North Africa isn't one I'd call 'hard', more a reverse France, just with the constraints of distance included.

With the British not having to yet again rebuild their army in NA and the RN not at breaking point, this gives so many options for 1942.

• Having the forces to stop the Japanese in Far east hard while keeping alot of DEI.
  • The butterfly here is the dutch growing their forces with LL which might be used later post Overload to free Dutch ealier. Interesting butterfly on how the Dutch react to DEI locals freeing them. Hopefully better than the French with the FNA troops.

Interesting point.

• Aegean campaign to learn amphibious assaults and then leaving the rest to the Free Greeks with air support.

Yep. Also forces the Axis to devote far more resources to Greece than OTL.

• Taking French North Africa with US support

Maybe, maybe not. We'll have to see.

• Sicily campaign in the later part of 1942, to finish clearing the Med and the fact they be the pressure to use the troops in area.

Quite possibly, though whether they expand the campaign to the mainland is up for debate.

• Taking Thailand maybe parts of french indochina at the end of 1942.

Hopefully.

Down side of where this leaves them wil be heavy pressure from the US to do something in France in 1943.

Only a downside if they balls it up due to rushing.

 

[vetinari]

Often the issue wasn't the carriers themselves, but the aircraft. The Sea Hurricane f.e. didn't have folding wings, while the Seafire had rather narrow-track landing-gear. In fact, I don't think Britain produced a standout single-seat carrier fighter in the entire war.

I would suggest you are being rather limited in how you define, "standout". The Seafire was able to tackle any Axis fighter except for the jets that it encountered. If we extend the time frame a little, the Firefly had exceptional performance and was quite able to tackle any Japanese fighters it encountered. The Sea Mosquito was just a little bit late for the war but it allowed the range of strikes to be extended considerably and it was quite able to tackle anything the Japanese were able to produce. Three "outstanding" naval fighters which the British produced during WWII. Then you have the Sea Hornet, another twin engined beast which was outstanding. It was demonstrated by Eric "Winkle" Brown executing a loop with both engines turned off! Something no other fighter had ever done.

 

[MattII]

I would suggest you are being rather limited in how you define, "standout". The Seafire was able to tackle any Axis fighter except for the jets that it encountered.

Hm, short range, narrow-track landing-gear, modifications altering the balance making it prone to accidents...

If we extend the time frame a little, the Firefly had exceptional performance and was quite able to tackle any Japanese fighters it encountered.

I wouldn't say exceptional, not compared to the contemporary F6F. For a similarly powerful engine, the F6F had a longer range, a higher ceiling, faster climb, and could carrier a heavier weapons loadout. Face it, the extra crewman on the Fairey cut into its performance.

The Sea Mosquito was just a little bit late for the war but it allowed the range of strikes to be extended considerably and it was quite able to tackle anything the Japanese were able to produce. Three "outstanding" naval fighters which the British produced during WWII. Then you have the Sea Hornet, another twin engined beast which was outstanding. It was demonstrated by Eric "Winkle" Brown executing a loop with both engines turned off! Something no other fighter had ever done.

Twin-engined aircraft (at least, twin piston-engined ones) aren't brilliant for carrier operations, too large.

 

[I lurk therefore I am]

Hm, short range, narrow-track landing-gear, modifications altering the balance making it prone to accidents...

You could argue most, if not all, carrier based aircraft of the era was prone to accidents.

The Seafire was not an ideal aircraft, but it did the job.

 

[MattII]

You could argue most, if not all, carrier based aircraft of the era was prone to accidents.

The Seafire was not an ideal aircraft, but it did the job.

It did, but I'm not sure it worked as well as a custom design would have.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

But that wasnt what was said, was it?

It did, but I'm not sure it worked as well as a custom design would have.

 

[MattII]

But that wasnt what was said, was it?

A fighter that can only be used on the defensive is not really a great choice for a carrier fighter. Being prone to accidents also didn't help it.

I do wonder if something could have been done with aircraft the RAF didn't want, such as the Gloster F.5/34, Martin-Baker MB2 or Miles M.20.

 

[vetinari]

Hm, short range, narrow-track landing-gear, modifications altering the balance making it prone to accidents...

All immaterial. Maneuverability, speed and endurance where all exceptional, and they are the real measures of a fighter.

Mattil:
I wouldn't say exceptional, not compared to the contemporary F6F. For a similarly powerful engine, the F6F had a longer range, a higher ceiling, faster climb, and could carrier a heavier weapons loadout. Face it, the extra crewman on the Fairey cut into its performance.

It was exceptional for a naval fighter. A two seat naval fighter.

Twin-engined aircraft (at least, twin piston-engined ones) aren't brilliant for carrier operations, too large.

Tell that the Royal Navy and the US Navy. Both operated twin engined fighters off of carriers, well.

 

[MattII]

All immaterial. Maneuverability, speed and endurance where all exceptional, and they are the real measures of a fighter.

Endurance they were lacking. Also, naval fighters are different to land-based fighters, in that they also need to be long-ranged, durable, and stable on the ground, with the Seafire not doing brilliantly in two of those three.

It was exceptional for a naval fighter. A two seat naval fighter.

And that's where the problem lies, two seats. The extra seat is always going to cause issues.

Tell that the Royal Navy and the US Navy. Both operated twin engined fighters off of carriers, well.

Did they? And how well did they actually do?

 

[pjmidd]

And that's where the problem lies, two seats. The extra seat is always going to cause issues.

Please, do some research before spouting BS. The second seat was due to its intended role, long range picket, it was to compliment the carrier's main fighters, not replace them. It was always deployed, by design, to be at a longer distance from the carrier than typical in WW2. It was to warn, deal with recon birds and hopefully disrupt strikes before the main fighter CAP engaged.

 

[MattII]

Please, do some research before spouting BS. The second seat was due to its intended role, long range picket, it was to compliment the carrier's main fighters, not replace them. It was always deployed, by design, to be at a longer distance from the carrier than typical in WW2. It was to warn, deal with recon birds and hopefully disrupt strikes before the main fighter CAP engaged.

The issue is, Britain never had a native-origin, designed-for-purpose, single-seat carrier fighter for the Firefly to complement. They could hit any two points, but never all three, not until after the war at least.