Merry de Val took on the name Alexander VII, in honor of the last Spanish pope, and his selection was met with muted and reserved approval throughout most of Catholic Europe, with him regarded as a brilliant intellectual but his conservatism suggesting more of the same from Serafini. For his own part, Ferdinand II of Austria-Hungary saw his effort to anoint a name other than de Val backfire - Italy still was hostile to the new Pope, and he had earned powerful enemies in France and the Roman Curia whom he now needed to appease, arguably with a more aggressive stance geopolitically against "heathen" Italy and Protestant-dominated Germany..."

- God's Kingdom: The Catholic Church and the 20th Century

(As I've mentioned before, the Church stays much more conservative, and for longer, ITTL, but de Lai was a bridge too far. Merry de Val is one of those cliche alt-Pope choices, but he is one for a reason, so he'll make a perfectly fine Alexander VII for my purposes.)

Small quibble - I think his name would actually be Alexander IX. The last Alexander before this was Alexander VIII who died in 1691.
 
Speaking of the Papacy, I would imagine that iTTL there probably was an Archdiocese of Richmond, though probably the Premier Archdiocese in the CSA is in New Orleans, and there will never be an Archdiocese of Washington (created OTL in 1939). The Vatican tries to avoid having Archdiocese cross national boundaries, so the transfered Virginia land moves from the Archdiocese of Richmond to either Baltimore (most of the land), or Philadelphia (for Accomack and Northampton).

Oklahoma and Arkansas are part of the same Catholic Province, but the rearrangements there are 20th century. Texas has two Catholic provinces that add up to the State of Texas, no need to change.
Hmm. The Catholics end up more conservative, and I guess the Muslims more Liberal, and as for the Jews, I think there will still be *some* movement to Palestine as long as Western Jews can pay for Eastern (Russian) Jews to move there. OTOH, Thessaloniki. Oddly if the Greeks can manage to grab any part of Asia Minor when the Ottomans finally do get dogpiled on, there is less reason for the Jews to get kicked out of Thessaloniki.
Dan has elaborated the reasons why New Orleans would probably retain its prime position within the CSA, so I agree

Catholics more conservative, but also in a sense Protestantism is both more liberal and more conservative. What I mean by that is that the ultra-fundamentalist evangelical Christianity associated with today is kept in a deep-fried containment field in Dixie without the ideological and financial resources it enjoyed being part of the USA to export internationally. That said, mainline denominations stay more conservative for much longer (take the Anglican/Presbyterian Orange Order as your clearest example) and however one defines LDS, they’re obviously much more fundamentalist ITTL
The Jews were doing relatively fine, by European standards of the era at least, in Greek Thessaloniki till the Nazis showed up in WW2. There were problems, obviously, like the Campbell riots in 1931 and the arguments over the Jewish cemetery fate, but by the same token you had a community well integrated politically and economically with multiple members of parliament with both the Venizelist and Royalist parties.
They might ironically also be a strong supporter of the OE, in terms of the Devil they know vs the devil they don’t, so to speak
So thinking through this, IOTL the German fleet outnumbered the French about 2:1 in effective combat power and the Italians outnumbered the Austrians by a similar margin.

The latter ratio has little reason to change ITTL. The former, however…

The Germans have ensured British neutrality in part by not building as large a blue-water navy to challenge them. The French, not being able to rely on the Royal Navy to ensure the security of navigation in the North Atlantic, have surely built more.

Still, the raw industrial capacity of the two has surely told somewhat, and as the French have built up over the last quarter-century, the British have likely become more accommodating towards a German buildup, freeing them to pursue one in earnest.

The Germans are surely ahead, the question is “by how much?”

In any case I’d imagine the German-Italian strategy is to bottle up the Austrian surface combatants in the Adriatic with a bit over half of the Italian fleet, then try to use the other half to raid commerce and bombard coastal towns to tie down French strength and give the Germans a decisive margin in the Atlantic to try to force a decisive battle. Then the German fleet can mount an expedition with a portion of its strength to support the Italians in clearing out the Mediterranean, or at least serving as a fleet-in-being to keep the remaining French vessels and the Austrians bottled up.

In naval affairs, more clearly than elsewhere, Germany and Italy have a decisive advantage in productive capacity over France and Austria and can afford to suffer attrition to cripple their opponents. This strategy will likely work on the second round, if not the first.

The latter will surely end up resorting to submarine warfare after it does.
The Austrians are probably close to parity with battleships to Italy but not on smaller vessels like destroyers, cruisers, etc, so it may be more 3:2 than 2:1. Still, advantage Italy, especially since Italian boats were generally excellent, and Austrian ones were… not.

I will need to do the numbers on fleet tonnage before the war kicks off, though, like I did for the GAW.

The one issue for Germany is how amenable Britain is to them just launching the KM through the Channel at France, but without needing to screen the Baltic for Russian vessels, the Germans can commit a very large expeditionary fleet, and may find a friendly port in Spain for refueling, even if Spain is formally neutral.
Small quibble - I think his name would actually be Alexander IX. The last Alexander before this was Alexander VIII who died in 1691.
ah, you’re right. This may be a holdover from when I’d pondered him taking the name Adrian VII in honor of the *last* non Italian pope, though seeing as he’s long been associated with Vatican administration he may not think that symbolically.

Hmm. Open to suggestions here!
 
Dan has elaborated the reasons why New Orleans would probably retain its prime position within the CSA, so I agree

Catholics more conservative, but also in a sense Protestantism is both more liberal and more conservative. What I mean by that is that the ultra-fundamentalist evangelical Christianity associated with today is kept in a deep-fried containment field in Dixie without the ideological and financial resources it enjoyed being part of the USA to export internationally. That said, mainline denominations stay more conservative for much longer (take the Anglican/Presbyterian Orange Order as your clearest example) and however one defines LDS, they’re obviously much more fundamentalist ITTL

They might ironically also be a strong supporter of the OE, in terms of the Devil they know vs the devil they don’t, so to speak

The Austrians are probably close to parity with battleships to Italy but not on smaller vessels like destroyers, cruisers, etc, so it may be more 3:2 than 2:1. Still, advantage Italy, especially since Italian boats were generally excellent, and Austrian ones were… not.

I will need to do the numbers on fleet tonnage before the war kicks off, though, like I did for the GAW.

The one issue for Germany is how amenable Britain is to them just launching the KM through the Channel at France, but without needing to screen the Baltic for Russian vessels, the Germans can commit a very large expeditionary fleet, and may find a friendly port in Spain for refueling, even if Spain is formally neutral.

ah, you’re right. This may be a holdover from when I’d pondered him taking the name Adrian VII in honor of the *last* non Italian pope, though seeing as he’s long been associated with Vatican administration he may not think that symbolically.

Hmm. Open to suggestions here!
Pope Peter II :)
 
ah, you’re right. This may be a holdover from when I’d pondered him taking the name Adrian VII in honor of the *last* non Italian pope, though seeing as he’s long been associated with Vatican administration he may not think that symbolically.

Hmm. Open to suggestions here!

Honestly, he may stay away from Alexander as a name, because even though he's Spanish, I don't think he'd particularly want to associate himself the Borgia Pope!

Perhaps he'd choose the name of a prominent Spanish Saint, such as St. Ignatius of Loyola. Added bonus, Merry De Val was educated by Jesuits and the university he got his PhD from was actually founded by St. Ignatius.

So, Pope Ignatius I does have kinda a nice ring to it :)
 
The one issue for Germany is how amenable Britain is to them just launching the KM through the Channel at France, but without needing to screen the Baltic for Russian vessels, the Germans can commit a very large expeditionary fleet, and may find a friendly port in Spain for refueling, even if Spain is formally neutral.
I think the British would definitely oppose fleet action in the channel or a total blockade of France, but Germany could still send their fleet to the Med, if the can get it there. The issue would be if the German fleet is strong enough not to get intercepted by the French one before they can join the Italians.
 
The one issue for Germany is how amenable Britain is to them just launching the KM through the Channel at France
I have to imagine that one of the first things the British would do once the war breaks out is to declare the Strait of Dover closed to all warships. They obviously have the means to enforce it, and last thing they need is for the Channel and the North Sea to become a massive warzone.
 
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Pope Peter II :)
Ha!
Honestly, he may stay away from Alexander as a name, because even though he's Spanish, I don't think he'd particularly want to associate himself the Borgia Pope!

Perhaps he'd choose the name of a prominent Spanish Saint, such as St. Ignatius of Loyola. Added bonus, Merry De Val was educated by Jesuits and the university he got his PhD from was actually founded by St. Ignatius.

So, Pope Ignatius I does have kinda a nice ring to it :)
I actually really like that idea
I think the British would definitely oppose fleet action in the channel or a total blockade of France, but Germany could still send their fleet to the Med, if the can get it there. The issue would be if the German fleet is strong enough not to get intercepted by the French one before they can join the Italians.
OTL France typically kept the weight of their naval forces in the Med, in part because they knew Britain had the North Sea locked down. ITL they’d have a tradeoff - possession of the Suez (informal as it may be) would lean towards an even greater presence there, but the German threat would speak to having more boats at Brest and Le Havre. So they may not have the forces available for a decisive battle off Normandy against the bulk of the KM, if they also need to consider their strategic prerogatives in the Med/Far East. They’re spread very thin, potentially
I have to imagine that one of the first things the British would do once the war breaks out is to declare the Strait of Dover closed to all warships. They obviously have the means to enforce it, and last thing they need is for the Channel and the North Sea to become a massive warzone.
That’s probably exactly what they’d do. Germany will be pissed it has to go around Scotland but that’s probably not a huge issue
 
Ha!

I actually really like that idea

OTL France typically kept the weight of their naval forces in the Med, in part because they knew Britain had the North Sea locked down. ITL they’d have a tradeoff - possession of the Suez (informal as it may be) would lean towards an even greater presence there, but the German threat would speak to having more boats at Brest and Le Havre. So they may not have the forces available for a decisive battle off Normandy against the bulk of the KM, if they also need to consider their strategic prerogatives in the Med/Far East. They’re spread very thin, potentially

That’s probably exactly what they’d do. Germany will be pissed it has to go around Scotland but that’s probably not a huge issue
It does lead to the question as to whether the French have any ship building capacity on the Channel that the British have just functionally given protection to.
 
It does lead to the question as to whether the French have any ship building capacity on the Channel that the British have just functionally given protection to.
Le Havre/Cherbourg were important to the French Navy for obvious geographic reasons, but the bulk was out at Brest and thereabouts, and then of course Toulon. (Bordeaux was a submarine base in WW2 but that was always much more of a commercial port than a military one)
 
OTL France typically kept the weight of their naval forces in the Med, in part because they knew Britain had the North Sea locked down. ITL they’d have a tradeoff - possession of the Suez (informal as it may be) would lean towards an even greater presence there, but the German threat would speak to having more boats at Brest and Le Havre. So they may not have the forces available for a decisive battle off Normandy against the bulk of the KM, if they also need to consider their strategic prerogatives in the Med/Far East. They’re spread very thin, potentially
I must note two things. First if TTL Germany was building up a fleet up to OTL levels then Britain would not be a happy camper. To put it politely. The British-German deals are also indicative of a German navy that isn't though of as the single most dangerous threat for the RN and by extension British security.

Second the table below from Conway's All the World Fighting Ships 1906-21 is... indicative
1710967338179.png


Third republic France in a decade spends 154.7 million pounds on the navy in a decade with 59.68 million going to new construction. All 26 German battleships and battlecruisers from Nassau down to Baden and Hintenburg cost... 57.6 million pounds. TTL France is not changing naval ministers every second week. No reason France builds 6 Dantons for example each costing as much as a proper dreadnought. And of course by 1918 the OTL French under the 1912 naval law were supposed to be building 28 new battleships 12 were actually built or under construction as of 1914. So.... is the Imperial French Navy actually any weaker than the German? I'm inclined to believe there are good reasons to expect its actually the second largest navy on Earth behind Britain.
 
I must note two things. First if TTL Germany was building up a fleet up to OTL levels then Britain would not be a happy camper. To put it politely. The British-German deals are also indicative of a German navy that isn't though of as the single most dangerous threat for the RN and by extension British security.

Second the table below from Conway's All the World Fighting Ships 1906-21 is... indicative
View attachment 895897

Third republic France in a decade spends 154.7 million pounds on the navy in a decade with 59.68 million going to new construction. All 26 German battleships and battlecruisers from Nassau down to Baden and Hintenburg cost... 57.6 million pounds. TTL France is not changing naval ministers every second week. No reason France builds 6 Dantons for example each costing as much as a proper dreadnought. And of course by 1918 the OTL French under the 1912 naval law were supposed to be building 28 new battleships 12 were actually built or under construction as of 1914. So.... is the Imperial French Navy actually any weaker than the German? I'm inclined to believe there are good reasons to expect its actually the second largest navy on Earth behind Britain.
I’m always glad to be corrected or buffeted by hard data, lol!

Yes, my head canon has always been that France is number deux when it comes to navies ITTL. Bear in mind too that with actual Navy man Heinrich in charge rather than pretend Navy manchild Bill in charge, guys like Tirpitz don’t take over. So the Germans stick with Jeune Ecole philosophies for longer, and pivot to a dreadnought program much later. So they may indeed be playing catch-up to France!
 
Somewhat related, I'm kinda bummed the current King of the UK isn't Arthur I (Arthur is one of his names) instead of the way more boring Charles III. Dude could literally have been King Arthur.
Yeah but then he's going to be remembered as the cheeky cunt who took King Arthurs legendary name as his own, so if he doesn't have an epic reign and live up to his chosen moniker he's always going to be considered inferior in some way instead of judged solely on his own merit.
 
What was so visceral about it? (if you're willing to share, I'm going to go back and remind myself what the'Red Summer' was to be certain I'm remembering correctly o:)
The rape, dismemberment of Confederate/US troops, soldiers being crucified, and the lynchings.
 
Second the table below from Conway's All the World Fighting Ships 1906-21 is... indicative
View attachment 895897

Third republic France in a decade spends 154.7 million pounds on the navy in a decade with 59.68 million going to new construction. All 26 German battleships and battlecruisers from Nassau down to Baden and Hintenburg cost... 57.6 million pounds. TTL France is not changing naval ministers every second week. No reason France builds 6 Dantons for example each costing as much as a proper dreadnought. And of course by 1918 the OTL French under the 1912 naval law were supposed to be building 28 new battleships 12 were actually built or under construction as of 1914. So.... is the Imperial French Navy actually any weaker than the German? I'm inclined to believe there are good reasons to expect its actually the second largest navy on Earth behind Britain.
It doesn't take much to substantially improve the capabilities of La Royale.
The main difference between TTL and OTL is that historically traditional battleships were deemed as mastodons and symbols of the old regime by the fiercely republican torpedo boat proponents of the OTL Third Republic.

TTL they will by all likelihood remain prides of the fleet, while Britain remains the traditional potential adversary.
It logically follows that large parts of the funding spent on torpedo boat flotillas and armoured cruisers will be used for battleship construction instead.
This does not by any means entirely butterfly away the French armoured cruiser construction and the proponents of Jeune École, though. The more extensive network of French bases and the control of Suez will affect the French naval strategy in any case, as the Mediterranean is not viewed as a bottle that Britain can seal at will.
 
Pope Ignatius I it is!!!!!! :)
The Retcon has been made!
It doesn't take much to substantially improve the capabilities of La Royale.
The main difference between TTL and OTL is that historically traditional battleships were deemed as mastodons and symbols of the old regime by the fiercely republican torpedo boat proponents of the OTL Third Republic.

TTL they will by all likelihood remain prides of the fleet, while Britain remains the traditional potential adversary.
It logically follows that large parts of the funding spent on torpedo boat flotillas and armoured cruisers will be used for battleship construction instead.
This does not by any means entirely butterfly away the French armoured cruiser construction and the proponents of Jeune École, though. The more extensive network of French bases and the control of Suez will affect the French naval strategy in any case, as the Mediterranean is not viewed as a bottle that Britain can seal at will.
Well put!
 
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