Semenov in Mongolia/Buryatia

Forbiddenparadise64 · May 2, 2017

I know this is the third Mongolia topic I've done, but I've noticed that while Sternberg had become a mini-trope himself, his superior Gregori Semenov never really had been a particular feature of a timeline besides as a footnote. Unlike the mad monarchist, Semenov was a genuine pan-Mongolist supporter and was on decent terms with the Japanese. He particularly had support in Buryatia in the Transbaikal region and among other parts of the Trans-Siberian railway.

He commanded a much larger (14,500 compared to the latter's 3000-5500) and at least slightly more competent army than his more famous lieutenant and while still extremely brutal, didn't get to quite such an extreme as the Baron.

The main issue is that he was relatively secular rather than the theocratic Bogd Khan, and wanted Buryat and Cossack leadership. His army size at its peak was multiple times as large and more organised than Ungern's was at its peak, and minus the extreme excesses. My money is on delayed Societ presence in Siberia and the Far East, allowing him to get more support and find international backers.

So, in a friendly scenario, how would Semenov and his followers function as a state internally and internationally, what conditions could allow him to have more success and what would the long term implications of this be?

Bee · May 2, 2017

Forbiddenparadise64 said:
I know this is the third Mongolia topic I've done, but I've noticed that while Sternberg had become a mini-trope himself, his superior Gregori Semenov never really had been a particular feature of a timeline besides as a footnote. Unlike the mad monarchist, Semenov was a genuine pan-Mongolist supporter and was on decent terms with the Japanese. He particularly had support in Buryatia in the Transbaikal region and among other parts of the Trans-Siberian railway.

He commanded a much larger and at least slightly more competent army than his lieutenant and while still extremely brutal, didn't get to quite such an extreme as the Baron. The main issue is that he was relatively secular rather than the theocratic Bogd Khan, and wanted Buryat leadership. His army size at its peak was multiple times as large and more organised than Ungern's was at its peak, and minus the extreme excesses. My money is on delayed Societ presence in Siberia and the Far East, allowing him to get more support and find international backers.

So, in a friendly scenario, how would Semenov and his followers function as a state internally and internationally, what conditions could allow him to have more success and what would the long term implications of this be?

We know how he ruled the areas he did control. His regime would steal as much as it could, and occasionally kill to do it. Supplies for Kolchak's regime passed through Semenov's territory, and were inevitably much reduced by the time they reached Kolchak's area.

In general, Semenov wasn't as psychopathic as Ungern-Sternberg or Kalmykov, being more of a bandit than a maniac, but he was still bad enough. A good book covering Semenov's campaigns and rule over Transbaikalia is White Terror: Cossack Warlords of the Transsiberian by Jamie Bisher.

Forbiddenparadise64 · May 2, 2017

Bee said:
We know how he ruled the areas he did control. His regime would steal as much as it could, and occasionally kill to do it. Supplies for Kolchak's regime passed through Semenov's territory, and were inevitably much reduced by the time they reached Kolchak's area.

In general, Semenov wasn't as psychopathic as Ungern-Sternberg or Kalmykov, being more of a bandit than a maniac, but he was still bad enough. A good book covering Semenov's campaigns and rule over Transbaikalia is White Terror: Cossack Warlords of the Transsiberian by Jamie Bisher.

Cheers, just read some of that on Kalmykov (whom I hadn't heard of before) and it seems pretty fascinating. Would you say Semenov may have (even remotely) had more of a chance than his leitenants in forming a cohesive state, especially in a more chaotic RCW scenario?

Bee · May 2, 2017

Forbiddenparadise64 said:
Cheers, just read some of that on Kalmykov (whom I hadn't heard of before) and it seems pretty fascinating. Would you say Semenov may have (even remotely) had more of a chance than his leitenants in forming a cohesive state, especially in a more chaotic RCW scenario?

Semenov had more resources than the other two and was saner, and he was the one the Japanese chose to support. To give credit where it's due, Semenov was also a fighter. He kept his forces in the field even when circumstances looked bleakest (first, before the Czech Legion rose against the Bolsheviks, and later, after the White Russians had collapsed in Europe). The question I don't know how to answer is where Semenov would rule long term. Maybe he could take over from Ungern-Sternberg if the latter was killed in action. I still think that for long-term survival, he would have to be supported from outside -- probably by Japan.

P.S., Semenov's alliance with Japan was really one of convenience only for the Japanese. After Semenov's larcenous career in Transbaikalia ended, he fled with his loot to Japan, only to be robbed of it by his hosts.

Forbiddenparadise64 · May 3, 2017

I'm sure he was Sternberg's superior though, so if he'd kept him in check he may not need to succeed him. Even if he doesn't do what Sternberg did and take Outer Mongolia (and I believe Tannu Tuva), a Japan-backed Buryatia isn't out of the question I presume: seems more plausible than a giant expanding Sternberg khanate aka Kaiserreich. Plus Semenov was far less ambitious.

yourworstnightmare · May 3, 2017

Also Semenov's opportunisitic Mongol nationalism would win over Mongols more in the long run than Sternberg's Pan- Asian fanatism. Bogd Khan wasn't a fan of Semenov and thus didn't send any delegates to Semenov's Pan- Mongolian Congress OTL, maybe this should be the PoD. Bogd Khan didn't like Sternberg either but had to put with him. I think the Pan- Mongolian Congress not being a fiasco could be an interesting PoD.

Forbiddenparadise64 · May 5, 2017

Agreed. Now to find a way for a Semenov dominated/influenced Mongolia to survive (people have managed to do it for Sternberg after all!)

yourworstnightmare · May 5, 2017

Forbiddenparadise64 said:
Agreed. Now to find a way for a Semenov dominated/influenced Mongolia to survive (people have managed to do it for Sternberg after all!)

Yes, but only with shrugs and ASBs. This is actually hard. A white general in Mongolia is just the thing to make the Reds take an interest in the red Mongols and Mongol nationalism.

Forbiddenparadise64 · May 6, 2017

yourworstnightmare said:
Yes, but only with shrugs and ASBs. This is actually hard. A white general in Mongolia is just the thing to make the Reds take an interest in the red Mongols and Mongol nationalism.

I wouldn't go as far as saying ASB, but I see your point. Changing the outcome of the Russian Civil War of course is needed, without a doubt.

Forbiddenparadise64 · May 6, 2017

yourworstnightmare said:
Also Semenov's opportunisitic Mongol nationalism would win over Mongols more in the long run than Sternberg's Pan- Asian fanatism. Bogd Khan wasn't a fan of Semenov and thus didn't send any delegates to Semenov's Pan- Mongolian Congress OTL, maybe this should be the PoD. Bogd Khan didn't like Sternberg either but had to put with him. I think the Pan- Mongolian Congress not being a fiasco could be an interesting PoD.

And yes, someone should do a timeline along these lines.