Poland-Lithuanian Reforms?

[da Racontor]

The Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth is well know for the unique form of government it had. That government though had some significant problems. Some of which led to the complete partitioning of the country.

Does anyone know of any contemporary reforms that were proposed? And what effects would those reforms had?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth

*Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

Does anyone know of any contemporary reforms that were proposed?

What do you mean by contemporary? Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth lasted since 1569 to 1795, it's quite long of a time.

 

[Steno]

I’m assuming your referring to the era of Augustus III and Stanislaw Augustus, as this is when serious efforts were made to reform the country.

The Constitution of May 1791 was a pretty significant package of reforms. It indicated a clear division of powers in the government and enshrined a hereditary monarchy.

Another significant and needed reform was the implementation of a Permanent Council headed by the King that could be an actual executive authority, something the Commonwealth had seriously lacked to its detriment.

 

[da Racontor]

*Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth



What do you mean by contemporary? Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth lasted since 1569 to 1795, it's quite long of a time.

Reforms that were proposed during the commonwealth life time. I understand it lasted for a long time and I'm interested in any of the reforms.

What I'm not interested at this moment are ideas that we (modern people) would have suggested.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Reforms that were proposed during the commonwealth life time. I understand it lasted for a long time and I'm interested in any of the reforms.

Well, the basic reform which was both needed and proposed was reform of voting system in parliament. Reform proposers wanted to abolish the duty of voting unanonimously (agreement of every envoy was needed to pass the bill) in favor 2/3 majority of votes needed to pass the bill. The difference is that the royalist-leaning writers wanted to do so when keeping King's power to appoint new officials, and republican-leaning ones wanted to curb King's power when it comes to nomination and transfer it to Sejm (parliament). Another reform proposal was change in the system of electing kings. King was ought to be elected after his precedessor's death by (theoretically) every single male noble in the country. Jan Zamoyski's proposal from 1590 aimed to limit election to previous king's sons and native-born nobles, excluding foreign candidates. During so-called Lubomirski's rebellion, king John II Casimir aimed to abolish the duty to elect king after his precedessor's death and he tried to make Henri Jules d'Enghien, eldest son of Louis Grand Conde, his heir by electing him during his own lifetime. During the said rebelion, his ministers aimed to exclude non-Catholics and members of Habsburg and Bourbon dynasty from participating in election. Andrew Maximilian Fredro, one of the most prominent minds of the era, also wanted to create so called "small pospolite ruszenie (pospolite ruszenie is levee en masee of nobility)" to lustrate their wealth.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

John Casimir wasted good occassion to introduce reforms after Deluge (which made need for reforms obvious) but failed, as he concentrated on securing election of Conde or d'Enghien, abandoning other, more needed reforms. Something that would never happen if John Casimir's own son survived infancy.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

John Casimir wasted good occassion to introduce reforms after Deluge (which made need for reforms obvious) but failed, as he concentrated on securing election of Conde or d'Enghien, abandoning other, more needed reforms. Something that would never happen if John Casimir's own son survived infancy.

Actually, I'm not so sure, Louise Marie would still feel the need to ensure her son's future and she might not trust nobility to elect her son after his father will die.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Actually, I'm not so sure, Louise Marie would still feel the need to ensure her son's future and she might not trust nobility to elect her son after his father will die.

But she would not have Louis XIV's money to pay for VR campaign.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

But she would not have Louis XIV's money to pay for VR campaign.

Yeah, but IMHO it'd make her actions even worse.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Have the Polish kind decide to keep fighting in the Polish-Russian War of 1792. The outcome of the war was far from settled and if they had been able to win, or at least negotiate peace on more favorable terms, then Poland-Lithuania could avoid the second and third partitions and continue on its constitutional reforms.

I wonder if a surviving Liberal Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth would be an ally for France during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars or would they try and keep their heads down?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

they had been able to win

No, they weren't able to win, because Prussians and Austrians would immediately backstab them.

 

[Alexander the Average]

No, they weren't able to win, because Prussians and Austrians would immediately backstab them.

At the same time though the Prussians and Austrians also has to deal with the French rampaging across Europe at this time. Under those circumstances there might be a situation where the Coalitions sign a non-aggression pact with the Poles to keep them out of the war, or maybe have them join the Coalition for geopolitical reasons, or alternatively have France and Poland combine their forces together and succeed in overrunning the continent between them.

 

[UnaiB]

@alexmilman

 

[alexmilman]

@alexmilman

I don’t think that in 1792 the Poles had a realistic chance to win because the Russian-Ottoman War ended few months earlier and CII could keep increasing number of the troops involved and start using the 1st class (in quality) generals like Rumiantsev , Suvorov and Repnin. If SA did not ask for peace while his armies were not completely destroyed, the conditions would be much more harsh. Look at what happened after Kościuszko Uprising.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

At the same time though the Prussians and Austrians also has to deal with the French rampaging across Europe at this time. Under those circumstances there might be a situation where the Coalitions sign a non-aggression pact with the Poles to keep them out of the war, or maybe have them join the Coalition for geopolitical reasons, or alternatively have France and Poland combine their forces together and succeed in overrunning the continent between them.

But for backstabbing Poland, they don't need much military force.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Catherine II dying earlier may be blessing for PLC. Paul was polonophile and regretted that partitions happened, and he was not obsessed with Jacobins like his mother was during her last years, so for Polish reformers it would be possible to get his support.

 

[alexmilman]

Catherine II dying earlier may be blessing for PLC. Paul was polonophile and regretted that partitions happened, and he was not obsessed with Jacobins like his mother was during her last years, so for Polish reformers it would be possible to get his support.

Well, as far as the Jackobins are involved, Paul forbade the French style fashions as “revolutionary”. 🤪 But he was, indeed, openly against the partitions even if he did not consider it possible to roll them back. But if he became an emperor just in the midst of the war (which would be tricky, taking into an account how short it was), he’d probably feel obligated to win it in the terms of getting something out of it allowing to claim a victory.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Well, as far as the Jackobins are involved, Paul forbade the French style fashions as “revolutionary”. 🤪 But he was, indeed, openly against the partitions even if he did not consider it possible to roll them back. But if he became an emperor just in the midst of the war (which would be tricky, taking into an account how short it was), he’d probably feel obligated to win it in the terms of getting something out of it allowing to claim a victory.

I mean Paul takes throne before war starts, or perhaps as early as 1787/88, when reformers unsuccessfully negotiated with Catherine.

 

[Steno]

I mean Paul takes throne before war starts, or perhaps as early as 1787/88, when reformers unsuccessfully negotiated with Catherine.

What kind of deal could the reformers and Stanislaw make with Paul? I feel like he needs at least something he can show off as a victory, even if he is against ideas of partitioning Poland. Polish support against the Ottomans? IIRC Stanislaw floated this idea before Catherine but she rejected it.

 

[alexmilman]

I mean Paul takes throne before war starts, or perhaps as early as 1787/88, when reformers unsuccessfully negotiated with Catherine.

Then the war could be avoided. Unless, of course, Paul finds the reforms “revolutionary”. OTOH, as long as SA is still a king, the “principle” is not violated and perhaps there is no war.

Actions of CII during that period and even earlier (take her second Ottoman War) were somewhat on a bizarre side and this Polish war did not make too much sense because she put SA on the throne in expectation of the reforms and now when they happened she was against them. Where is the logic?