Pockets of paganism survive in the MENA region till Muslim times

[Sheliak Lawyer]

Okay so some historians argue paganism survived in parts of Europe at late as the 9th century.

Your challenge is to have paganism-can be Greco-Roman, Egyptian, Berber or any other kind of paganism survive in the MENA region at least in isolated pockets into the Islamic era.

 

[Errnge]

Actually, paganism survived in Europe much longer than that. Sweden didn't convert until the 11th century, and Lithuania I think lasted until the 14th century.

In North Africa you probably had Berber paganism continue well into the Islamic era. Many Berbers converted for political purposes only and did not truly follow the religion until well into the middle ages. Greco-Roman paganism is a difficult ask with the religious fervor North Africa and Egypt had for Christianity. Egyptian paganism even harder considering most of it was absorbed into Greco-Roman paganism in the Hellenistic Age and then fully during the Roman Empire.

 

[Sheliak Lawyer]

Actually, paganism survived in Europe much longer than that. Sweden didn't convert until the 11th century, and Lithuania I think lasted until the 14th century.

In North Africa you probably had Berber paganism continue well into the Islamic era. Many Berbers converted for political purposes only and did not truly follow the religion until well into the middle ages. Greco-Roman paganism is a difficult ask with the religious fervor North Africa and Egypt had for Christianity. Egyptian paganism even harder considering most of it was absorbed into Greco-Roman paganism in the Hellenistic Age and then fully during the Roman Empire.

I was discounting the Baltic states and Sweden. There is research that pagan practices survived in the west(among the peasantry) into the medieval ages.

What about Assyrian and Mesootamian paganism? Armenian paganism? Even Arab paganism is okay.

 

[Errnge]

I was discounting the Baltic states and Sweden. There is research that pagan practices survived in the west(among the peasantry) into the medieval ages.

What about Assyrian and Mesootamian paganism? Armenian paganism? Even Arab paganism is okay.

Yeah, there's some evidence of continued paganism, especially in the British Isles, at least until the 10th century or so. But it's hard to prove...

Well, Mesopotamian Paganism could exist in some form if Islam never rose at all. But they would be caught between the forces of Christianity in the West and Zoroastrianism in the East. Arab paganism could also, but again, only without Islam. Islam very specifically targeted non-monotheists when it expanded.

Armenia converted to Christianity before Rome did, so that's a pretty hard sell on their version of paganism lasting that long.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

This depends on who you ask. Paganism most certainly remained in Europe whether you want to argue it was absorbed into Christendom or the fact that paganism was still the majority of east Europe and much of the Slavic world past the 9th century.

However, some areas of the Mid East, arguably continued or outright practiced paganism long after the rise of Islam. Detailed descriptions by the Saudi state of the 1700s, details how the majority of the populace of Eastern Arabia and the inner Nejd continued in traditional worship. Prominent features included a polytheism wherein Allah's spirit inhabits trees and rocks and such items are to be worshipped in place of Allah or to pray toward a tree that is sacred as opposed to Makkah. These practices certainly persisted for two reasons:

1. The area of the Nejd was inhabited primarily by Bedouin who lived on the fringes of society, even for those days standards. Such people joined the wave of Islam only for reasons pertaining to loot. There is no doubt that many of these continued within moderate forms of paganism until the rise of the Saudi state.

Then of course there is the Sulaba or Sulayb, which were a tribe distinct from Bedouin that knew (know, they may be extinct) the desert to a far greater extent than even their Arab Bedouin neighbors. These peoples are reported to have practiced paganism with Shi'i Islam until the 1900s, and presumably till this day.

2. The presence of the Shi'i Qarmatians and thwir influence in religion in the area. It is further, not a stretch to say that they were overtly pagan.

Regardless, paganism did survive in the Islamic world post Islam, just in creative ways and in less studied areas.

 

[Scorpius72]

Okay so some historians argue paganism survived in parts of Europe at late as the 9th century.

From what understand Graeco-Roman paganism survived in parts of the Byzantine-empire till the 10th century and the last part of Europe was pagan till the 13th century.

 

[sdrucker]

The Maniots, descendants of the Spartans, supposedly stayed pagan until the time of the Macedonian dynasty:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots

 

[Analytical Engine]

Yazidism, Manichaeism, Mandaeanism and Zoroastrianism. All of which still exist to this day, in various parts of the world.

 

[Xnyrax]

Yazidism, Manichaeism, Mandaeanism and Zoroastrianism. All of which still exist to this day, in various parts of the world.

None of which, I do believe, are included under the admittedly vague definition of 'paganism'. I believe the proper term, if one were an extremely xenophobic Abrahamic-god worshipper, would be "heathen" or "infidel".

 

[Analytical Engine]

None of which, I do believe, are included under the admittedly vague definition of 'paganism'. I believe the proper term, if one were an extremely xenophobic Abrahamic-god worshipper, would be "heathen" or "infidel".

Strictly speaking, paganism refers to the faith of the people living in the countryside, as apposed to those of the city. It's more traditional definition is "any religion that isn't Christianity, with a few small exceptions like Judaism".

 

[NolanFoster]

I've always thought the term 'paganism' was pretty much synonymous with the traditional polytheism of a region. Which means it excludes those which formed as the result of some movement.

 

[Tocomocho]

Mohammed threw out the idols from the Kaaba, you know.

 

[Gog (♀)]

Yazidism, Manichaeism, Mandaeanism and Zoroastrianism. All of which still exist to this day, in various parts of the world.

Zoroastrianism and it's related faiths are not considered "pagan" by any scholars I think. They are usually put in their own unique category.

 

[Xnyrax]

Strictly speaking, paganism refers to the faith of the people living in the countryside, as apposed to those of the city. It's more traditional definition is "any religion that isn't Christianity, with a few small exceptions like Judaism".

Ah, I see! You've taught me something new.

 

[Shinsu]

You had a "heavy pagan" following in the Berber region well into the 16th century of the various tribesmen in the region. You had some Greco-Roman worshipers on a number of islands as well such as Rab that followed the religion until they were conquered by outside forces or forced to convert by the Byzantiums.
You also have Finno-Urgarian pagans that have survived until modern day, not in great numbers compared to their pasts but they still count I would guess.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Ah, I see! You've taught me something new.

You're welcome.

 

[Workable Goblin]

I've always thought the term 'paganism' was pretty much synonymous with the traditional polytheism of a region. Which means it excludes those which formed as the result of some movement.

Yes, this is how I see it typically being used. "Paganism" just means "any traditional polytheistic religion aside from a few prominent exceptions". Anything that has a prophet attached to it is ipso facto not pagan, i.e. it excludes Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, etc.

 

[starwarsfan]

This depends on who you ask. Paganism most certainly remained in Europe whether you want to argue it was absorbed into Christendom or the fact that paganism was still the majority of east Europe and much of the Slavic world past the 9th century.

However, some areas of the Mid East, arguably continued or outright practiced paganism long after the rise of Islam. Detailed descriptions by the Saudi state of the 1700s, details how the majority of the populace of Eastern Arabia and the inner Nejd continued in traditional worship. Prominent features included a polytheism wherein Allah's spirit inhabits trees and rocks and such items are to be worshipped in place of Allah or to pray toward a tree that is sacred as opposed to Makkah. These practices certainly persisted for two reasons:

1. The area of the Nejd was inhabited primarily by Bedouin who lived on the fringes of society, even for those days standards. Such people joined the wave of Islam only for reasons pertaining to loot. There is no doubt that many of these continued within moderate forms of paganism until the rise of the Saudi state.

Then of course there is the Sulaba or Sulayb, which were a tribe distinct from Bedouin that knew (know, they may be extinct) the desert to a far greater extent than even their Arab Bedouin neighbors. These peoples are reported to have practiced paganism with Shi'i Islam until the 1900s, and presumably till this day.

2. The presence of the Shi'i Qarmatians and thwir influence in religion in the area. It is further, not a stretch to say that they were overtly pagan.

Regardless, paganism did survive in the Islamic world post Islam, just in creative ways and in less studied areas.

Im really interested on the Arabic pagans surviving after the 7th century, do you have any sources i could read on that? Would really like to research that some.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Im really interested on the Arabic pagans surviving after the 7th century, do you have any sources i could read on that? Would really like to research that some.

Read Madawi al-Rasheed's 'History of Saudi Arabia'

 

[PhilippeO]

the definition of Paganism is always confusing.

if some bedouin or farmers say their Muslims, but give gift/sacrifice/respect to sacred well, sacred tomb, or sacred mountain, or Hidden Imam, is it really Paganism or just Folk Superstition ? Nejd Bedouin and Qarmatian would certainly think of themselves as Muslims.

another difficult boundary is 'polytheistic'. late-Roman religion is not always polytheistic, worship of APollo, Isis, or Sol Invictus is very close to 'normal' monotheistic worship. if they survive would we consider them 'monotheistic' like Yezidiz or Zoroastrian ?

some problem appear with boundary between Religious Reformer or Cults, Qarmatians is no more weird than Joseph Smith Mormons or Munster Anabaptists, relying on enemy accusation of 'polytheism' might not be good standard.

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if Afghanistan considered MENA, then pre-Nuristani people seems good candidate for 'True Polytheism'.