Plausible long term statuses for Asian/African territories in a United British Empire with no ARW

The premise is that at some point in the 1760s, a more flexible British government engages with the American concerns and some sort of fudge is gradually sorted out. This involves notional Westminster supremacy, a fair amount of local autonomy, colonial representation in parliament and an (initially small) colonial contribution to the British exchequer, raised through whatever taxes the colonial assembly wants to use. Over time, the navigation acts get dismantled for imperial preference and the number of colonial MPs plus financial contribution goes up. Let's suppose we get some sort of combination of EU/NATO/UN for the imperial level and 75% dominion status for each American colony/aggregated groups of colonies. I don't want to debate this stuff as it has been discussed enough elsewhere.

What I am much more interested in having a discussion about is the Asian, African and even potential Latin American territories. I know butterflies are everything here, but we can imagine a probability distribution of scenarios. Britain only has a few toeholds as of 1765, but it's near certain Britain builds territory as it does in our timeline.

In fact, a lot of American chancers are likely to get in on the action of making a fortune in the East or grabbing territory and expecting British gunboats to back them up. In addition, American political and military strength in OTL forced free trade on Japan and a carving up of China. I can imagine the same American commercial lobbies would be pushing to use British strength to monopolize Far Eastern markets from other Europeans here. I also don't buy any arguments that the Brits would have "less focus" on other continents because of power in America. The Empire was always about local British types expanding whether or not London was focused on the area.

So how would these colonies evolve over the course of the 1800s? I can imagine the white elites in the Caribbean get included on the same basis as American colonies in whatever deals are worked out, and similarly with Southern Africa if the Brits dominate there. In both places I see a large enough white presence that a (semi) Anglocized black population gradually gets integrated into the electorate in several places. There would likely be violent struggle to get there, but the imperial center will sooner or later have a progressive government that forces local white elites to buckle.

People on this board occasionally propose something similar to happen to India. This seems utopian to me. The white British population is always going to be tiny in proportional terms. The Anglocized local population is also likely to be pretty small in terms of total population. The place is always going to seem more exotic to London than Pennsylvania or Jamaica. The nature of company rule also means a pure focus on commercial gain rather than strategic integration. And therr is a much longer history of native civilicivilization, which forms an opposition to British cultural domination. While the Brits can takeover Raj style and use divide and rule, it feels like independence is inevitable. Perhaps the Brits divide up India into more local states at independence and keep the princes in charge (or appoint new princes for direct rule areas) as they leave. I can imagine a similar situation to the American presence in the Middle East is OTL: closely allied local despots, occasional military deployments and plenty of local bases. But is there any territory the Brits might want to hang on to? Somewhere more manageable? Perhaps Ceylon?

China and Japan seem even harder to hang on to. Both have unified identities and prouder histories than the various Indian states. Chinese identity as the center of the world means they will react even more harshly to foreign subjugation. It feels like Britain might expand into treaty port hinter lands temporarily, but sooner or later small guns spread and the Brits face a horrific rebellion, with other European powers piling on. I can imagine it bringing the Empire to its knees and causing political crisis, similar to the French issues in Algeria. China is much more likely to get independence as a united entity than India, though perhaps the British keep it limited to China Proper with Tibet, East Turkestan, Mongolia and Manchuria separated. Would there be more Hong Kongs that survive independence? Perhaps even Taiwan? I can see Japan going both ways. It has the same strength of identity as China so that may cause a very strong anti-British identity. On the other hand, it may fear a nationalist China on its doorstep and want to keep close links. Especially if it is never formally annex to the British Empire and was "only" protectorate or vassal state.

Next we have South East Asia. I can imagine the British doing everything they can to keep the Straits of Malacca. With American money and population, I can see them holding on. It is a small population and multiple ethnic groups that would be played off against each other. The Indian and Chinese populations in particular have prospered there due to British rule. Access to the imperial market would also be worth a lot to TTL's Singapores.

The Middle East has a similar situation. Suez is as important as Malacca and the Brits are going to do everything to keep it. Egypt could likely break off, but the Brits could keep the Suez territory. Delayed decolonization (likely with no American antiimperialist pressure) will probably mean oil is discovered in the Gulf before the Brits leave. And virtually any cost is worth it to keep the oil.

The rest of Africa genuinely seems like it would stay out of British hands. It is unprofitable and there is no reason a mega-British Empire needs the prestige. I can't see the Scramble for Africa happening. Perhaps the French take over West Africa? Maybe the Brits prevent them and it's left as a whole bunch of tribal kingdoms? East Africa I can't really think through. Would we get the white highlands in this sort of timeland? Or just leave it unconquered.

Then finally Latin America. There will likely be more government backing for filibusters here so a lot more Belizes in central America and Mexico. Most of South America is going to have independence on the same timeline, given dysfunctional Spanish rule. I can't see the Brits being powerful enough at this time and region to determine new states, so it is likely informal empire and trading relationships.

So long term, perhaps the 21st Century British Empire/Commonwealth/whatever it is called has the British Isles, North America, Australia, some of the Caribbean, a bunch of microstates in central America, the Cape, the Suez, the Gulf, the Straits of Malacca and maybe Ceylon/Taiwan as remnants of Asian holdings. And then allied states in South America, African kingdoms, maybe Japan.

And yes, I know this could go hundreds of ways due to butterflies. But please, please, focus on the most plausible scenarios in each region. I genuinely appreciate the accumulated wisdom of this board to make me smarter.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Edit: Is the goal to create a scenario where the Commonwealth is the world’s pre-eminent power?

First, where do the other colonial powers (France, Holland, Russia) fit in? They will look at the already big (America and Australia) empire and want to build their own, especially if aligned to Britain

Second, assuming that British rule in the Mediterranean-Middle East (starting 1880s-1920s) is inevitable seems too deterministic. I can see Aden or Yemen under British rule but not necessarily Egypt

Also why only the British to dominate China? Even IOTL, China was dominated by multiple powers until WW2 so a joint-protectorate between the great powers with International Peking makes more sense

Fourth, centre of gravity shifts to North America by simple growth of population and looser but still extant ties from the Americans
 
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Second, assuming that British rule in the Mediterranean-Middle East (starting 1880s-1920s) is inevitable seems too deterministic. I can see Aden or Yemen under British rule but not necessarily Egypt
Assuming the Suez Canal still gets built, Egypt will be vital for securing easy communications with Britain's Far Eastern territories. Honestly I think it's probably the most likely part of the Middle East for Britain to go after.
 
Edit: Is the goal to create a scenario where the Commonwealth is the world’s pre-eminent power?

First, where do the other colonial powers (France, Holland, Russia) fit in? They will look at the already big (America and Australia) empire and want to build their own, especially if aligned to Britain

Second, assuming that British rule in the Mediterranean-Middle East (starting 1880s-1920s) is inevitable seems too deterministic. I can see Aden or Yemen under British rule but not necessarily Egypt

Also why only the British to dominate China? Even IOTL, China was dominated by multiple powers until WW2 so a joint-protectorate between the great powers with International Peking makes more sense

Fourth, centre of gravity shifts to North America by simple growth of population and looser but still extant ties from the Americans
Britain was the pre-eminent power in China in our timeline. If they have North America then they have a Pacific coast to travel from and the population base of American merchants. French and German penetration of China in OTL was based on America forcing Britain to carve up the place.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Britain was the pre-eminent power in China in our timeline. If they have North America then they have a Pacific coast to travel from and the population base of American merchants. French and German penetration of China in OTL was based on America forcing Britain to carve up the place.
But Still I assume Russian presence on the border allows some breathing room for China or Persia to prevent total annexation. I would look at B_Munro’s “Trouble Brewin’ “ take on the Two Georges
 
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And yes, I know this could go hundreds of ways due to butterflies. But please, please, focus on the most plausible scenarios in each region. I genuinely appreciate the accumulated wisdom of this board to make me smarter.
You appear to have skipped the bit where Britain goes from "all the North American colonies it had in pre-revolutionary 18th century North America"
to "controls all of North America, with the possiblr exception of Mexico south of Rio Grande", not to mention the bit that explains how British-ruled
North America appear to be basically USA (in mpoulation and interests), but part of the British Empire.

Also... Mega-Britain casually subjugates China and Japan (as well as India and Southern Africa), but aren't powerful enough to take on Latin America?
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
The British conquest of India took roughly 70 years, and how much time would it take to absorb all of east asia? Also, what institutions would be set up to assist this conquest and administrative structures?
 
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I think it's a mistake to assume that a Britain still in control of North America will even bother to take as much territory as they did in OTL, let alone more. A lot of their acquisitions were seemingly in reaction to losing the American colonies. Resources will be pushed into North America, not far-flung colonies in Asia. The Dutch and Portuguese will have a lot more room to move in such a timeline.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Why can’t there be a league of former British colonies that ejected Britain? I mean British racial ideology combined with overweening dominance even of its settler colonies (Gallipolli, Vimy Ridge) is something no one wants in the long run
 
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Perhaps the Brits divide up India into more local states at independence and keep the princes in charge (or appoint new princes for direct rule areas) as they leave.
Why would they do that?
OTL they seem to have preferred an united independent India (as seen from the Cabinet Mission Plan); nor do I see why they would appoint princes for directly ruled areas when the locals want democracy.
Assuming the situation in India is even vaguely like OTL when the place goes independent they will be incapable of enforcing either anyway.
 
American already had Reginal Parliaments and in the 1740s or 1750s they tried to create one Parliament in North America but it failed

The British never had real control over North America it was very hands off

I would say the English system was not made for federalism because it being a small Island because the English dominate the Union

Their would have to be an home grown federalist movement in England or Feredrick the son of George II is sent to exile in America
 
I think it's a mistake to assume that a Britain still in control of North America will even bother to take as much territory as they did in OTL, let alone more. A lot of their acquisitions were seemingly in reaction to losing the American colonies. Resources will be pushed into North America, not far-flung colonies in Asia. The Dutch and Portuguese will have a lot more room to move in such a timeline.
I'd dispute the bolded bit. You can make a case for it being true for Australia -- now that America was unavailable, Britain needed a new place to dump its convicts -- but other than that, British acquisitions were made for the same old reasons as securing trade/resources, defending pre-existing colonies, and stopping the French getting them instead.
Why can’t there be a league of former British colonies that ejected Britain?
Why would there be? Unless Britain was hellbent on reconquering them, they wouldn't have enough common strategic interests to make an alliance worthwhile.
I mean British racial ideology combined with overweening dominance even of its settler colonies (Gallipolli, Vimy Ridge) is something no one wants in the long run
Britain was probably the least overbearing of all the major colonial powers towards its settler colonies. The Thirteen Colonies were ruled in a very hand-off way compared to, say, Spanish America; Canada, Australia, NZ, and even South Africa all had internal self-governance by the time WW1 rolled along. And more British soldiers died at Gallipoli than ANZACs, so I'm not sure why this is being used as an example of Britain's "overweening dominance".
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
How do other colonial powers respond to such expansion? Even leaving aside Germany and Italy and Japan (under a British protectorate), I honestly assume that unrivalled British expansion, perhaps even across all of the territories of 19th/early 20th century imperialism in Africa- minus those acquired during the Scramble, the Middle East and Asia - will be met with some sort of response if only to retain the title of “Great Power”

Also does Britain retain its old relationship with Portugal and create alliances like the Anglo-Japanese alliance?

It would make sense to deputize to some extent control over China and Japan to 1) Corea and Vietnam which historically were dominated by China and to reduce the cost on Britain in occupying China and Japan
2) Portugal, Holland and other “friendly” European powers which can be thrown a bone in the form of the territory surrounding Macao, Desjima and the like

@Socrates Your no-ARW TL idea would be improved additional power centers than just Britain - regional states or empires it can work through indirectly help
 
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One question I've been pondering -- assuming (and I grant it's a big assumption) that TTL's British Empire gets all the same territory and population as OTL's British Empire + USA, would it be able to hang onto its non-white colonies? Or would the problems of ruling multiple country-sized pieces of land on the other side of the world still be too much, even with the extra wealth and manpower North America brings?
 
One question I've been pondering -- assuming (and I grant it's a big assumption) that TTL's British Empire gets all the same territory and population as OTL's British Empire + USA, would it be able to hang onto its non-white colonies? Or would the problems of ruling multiple country-sized pieces of land on the other side of the world still be too much, even with the extra wealth and manpower North America brings?


depends on whether this British empire wants to expand into financially expensive and mostly unproductive places for the time (which almost all of the 21 colonies in Africa were, most of them taken only to prevent France/Germany from occupying them or to facilitate the route ( or be a quicker alternative to get there, e.g. Suez ) towards India, we will most likely not see redcoats sent repeatedly to Sudan or the Ashanti empire for example as Otl ( but this at the same time may mean a greater investment in territories already occupied by the British or which are of particular interest, as the South Africa ( which could have already ended up in British hands during the 4th Anglo-Dutch war, given its strategic location in a perfect place as a stopover and control point for trade towards India ) I also believe that with the additional manpower and without particular prolonged commitments in very complicated and hostile places to supply, the empire will be able to try to remain attached to its jewel for longer
 
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Why would they do that?
OTL they seem to have preferred an united independent India (as seen from the Cabinet Mission Plan); nor do I see why they would appoint princes for directly ruled areas when the locals want democracy.
Assuming the situation in India is even vaguely like OTL when the place goes independent they will be incapable of enforcing either anyway.
IOTL the reason they wanted a united India was as a powerful ally against the USSR (not that it worked out that way). In this timeline, the British are much more powerful anyway.
 
You appear to have skipped the bit where Britain goes from "all the North American colonies it had in pre-revolutionary 18th century North America"
to "controls all of North America, with the possiblr exception of Mexico south of Rio Grande", not to mention the bit that explains how British-ruled
North America appear to be basically USA (in mpoulation and interests), but part of the British Empire.

Also... Mega-Britain casually subjugates China and Japan (as well as India and Southern Africa), but aren't powerful enough to take on Latin America?
Britain already has a heavily growing population from Florida to Nova Scotia. The native population north of the Rio Grande has been decimated by disease and far lower technology. The imperialist mentality of the Anglo settlers is going to grab the land and I can't see who else would get in their way.

China was subjugated twice in the Opium Wars in our timeline, and Commodore Perry forced policy on Japan. Who tried something similar on South America post independence?
 
I think it's a mistake to assume that a Britain still in control of North America will even bother to take as much territory as they did in OTL, let alone more. A lot of their acquisitions were seemingly in reaction to losing the American colonies. Resources will be pushed into North America, not far-flung colonies in Asia. The Dutch and Portuguese will have a lot more room to move in such a timeline.
What resources will be pushed into North America? North America would be a net source of resources for a united imperial power. And, as I said, the conquests of India, Nigeria, Malaysia in OTL weren't pushed from London. They are people on the ground trying their luck. And more people on the ground will lead to more of that...
 
One question I've been pondering -- assuming (and I grant it's a big assumption) that TTL's British Empire gets all the same territory and population as OTL's British Empire + USA, would it be able to hang onto its non-white colonies? Or would the problems of ruling multiple country-sized pieces of land on the other side of the world still be too much, even with the extra wealth and manpower North America brings?
This is a lot of the thinking in my first post and would welcome debate. I think they could hang on to small population places like Malaya, Ceylon, Formosa. But trying to hold on to places like China, India is a fool's errand even for a mega-Britain. Though imperial hubris is likely to mean they try...
 
Britain already has a heavily growing population from Florida to Nova Scotia. The native population north of the Rio Grande has been decimated by disease and far lower technology. The imperialist mentality of the Anglo settlers is going to grab the land and I can't see who else would get in their way.
The native population north of the Rio Grande may have been decimated and have a lower technology, but the provinces of Louisiana and Las Californias
(i.e. basically everything in OTL USA between the British colonies and The Pacific except for Washington and Oregon) are still parts of the Spanish Empire, ands France may still have some opinions regarding what happens in their former North American province.

China was subjugated twice in the Opium Wars in our timeline, and Commodore Perry forced policy on Japan. Who tried something similar on South America post independence?
China was defeated and humiliated in the Opium Wars, but never subjugated (if memory serves the war barely left the coast).
The only territory Britain got out of it was Hong Kong and associated territories.
China itself remained independent, sovereign and unsubjugated,
Perry forced Japan to open up for trade and diplomatic relations, but Japan is quite famous - notorious even - for not
having been conquered.
 
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