Plausibility check: ASW and AEW airships.

Leaving aside the political factors for the moment,
would it have been technically
feasible to use airships for anti submarine
warfare during world war II?
On a similar note, was there an aircraft detection
set small and durable enough for airships
to be used in to detect incoming aircraft.
 
Imo only in a scenario were one side dominates the air war to a ridiculous amount. Otherwise the Zeps or Blimps or whatever are floating targets waiting to deflate...
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Imo only in a scenario were one side dominates the air war to a ridiculous amount. Otherwise the Zeps or Blimps or whatever are floating targets waiting to deflate...

Yeah, if there's a situation where you need to have an airborne radar for a long time in the WW2 era... what are you using it for?
You're not protecting a land target, because you could put a bigger and more sensitive radar there.
You're not protecting a fleet, because ship-borne radar came first...
So you're protecting an air target...?
And if you're protecting an air target against enemy air power, you're screwed. If there's anything for the Radar to detect, the blimp is going down in short order.
 
How about blimps escorting allied atlantic convoys. They would give improved over the horizon scanning.

Totally useless if theres a Condor about and totally unnecessary once escort carriers are up and running. And also not needed once radar sets get small enough (and common enough) to be fitted into floatplanes from escorts

Or even just something like a barrage balloon lofted from a ship, anything really to get a bit more height to the radar set
 

Saphroneth

Banned
How about blimps escorting allied atlantic convoys. They would give improved over the horizon scanning.

Totally useless if theres a Condor about and totally unnecessary once escort carriers are up and running. And also not needed once radar sets get small enough (and common enough) to be fitted into floatplanes from escorts

Or even just something like a barrage balloon lofted from a ship, anything really to get a bit more height to the radar set

About the only thing they're going to spot WITH an AEW loadout is going to be a Condor. Anything that they're useful to spot is going to be able to kill them.

Their OTL use was ASW, and in that they did very well indeed.
 
About the only thing they're going to spot WITH an AEW loadout is going to be a Condor. Anything that they're useful to spot is going to be able to kill them.

Their OTL use was ASW, and in that they did very well indeed.

Agreed, i should have specified that i meant ASW - specifically to spot uboats on the surface and to either re-route or to get an escort over to them to get them underwater and occupied
 
One thing that occurs with the vulnerability to Condor aircraft and the like is maybe a trapeze mounted plane similar in concept to the CAM ship (old plane which the pilot ditches after the intercept). Really can't see them docking back on to that mount in mid air TBH.
 
Airships (blimps) were widely deployed by the USN during WW2 in an ASW role, primarily for convoy escort. In many respects, airships were ideally suited for this: long endurance and ability to hover on station, ability to carry and delploy a wide array of detection equipment, and invulnerability to submerged torpedo attack. Most WW2 airships were small, however, and did not carry sufficient ASW weaponry to press home their own attacks on U-boats. In fact, their standing orders were to not engage submarines, but instead call in surface ships and aircraft. Their main role was in detection and deterence.

The situation was also ideal for airships because the Allies enjoyed almost complete comand of the air over the atlantic. Airships could operate with virtually no risk of encountering hostile aircraft.

As for AEW, I fail to see how blimps would have much value in this role
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Leaving aside the political factors for the moment,
would it have been technically
feasible to use airships for anti submarine
warfare during world war II?
On a similar note, was there an aircraft detection
set small and durable enough for airships
to be used in to detect incoming aircraft.

Yes, it is feasible. We did use blimps to hunt subs, and more would have been useful. You can also take a Macon like ship with airplanes and use to hunt subs. You basically get the equivalent of a 6-12 plane anti-sub carrier that can rapidly get to a needed area much faster than a light carrier (CVE). You are looking at maybe a 200 knot speed to arrive for the carrier not low 30's for a theoritical light carrier built on cruiser hull.

By the end of WW1, you have Zeppelins with lift capacity of over 80,000 pounds, so yes you can put in the radar. It just requires funding to develop. The advantage is the range to the horizon, the same basic reason we use AWACs today. Someone just has to dream up the concept soon enough and win funding. Now it can't defend itself versus fighter aircraft, but neither can an AWAC. So near land, say used in England, it will have to have dedicated fighters to protect. Over the ocean, it will be above the operational ceiling of carrier based aviation. BTW, you probably will need pressure suits too. It can also carry weapons, so it does not have to be helpless. Again, a lot depends on development budgets. Do you stick a few 50 caliber on it, or is it like the late 1940's radar controlled guns? Or just leave it unarmed? Also, Helium blimps don't go boom, the slowly deflate as hit by bullets.

Now assuming you don't change WW1 outcome and you take out the fun German scenario, where would you use it. A place like Pearl Habor (or any major naval base like Singapore). You build a small fleet of them (3-5) and have them patrol outside of the base over the ocean. It makes the enemy's job much harder since they have to deal with the likelihood of being caught up to 700 miles from Pearl. All for the cost of about a destroyer each at these levels. It makes a good TL.

So does one where the USA keeps them in service, and then lends lease these blimps to the UK for anti-submarine work. Zeppelins are a niche item. They can be useful. So much like spending on Navy Seals or subs to tap cables or SR-71, they can be a high cost per unit, low total cost item with big benefits. Or you can fight a war without them and do ok.
 
Airships (blimps) were widely deployed by the USN during WW2 in an ASW role, primarily for convoy escort. In many respects, airships were ideally suited for this: long endurance and ability to hover on station, ability to carry and delploy a wide array of detection equipment, and invulnerability to submerged torpedo attack.
Surprised you didn't mention this, which sketches out what I think is a pretty plausible picture for a history and deployment of ASW rigid airships. :)
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Yeah, if there's a situation where you need to have an airborne radar for a long time in the WW2 era... what are you using it for?
You're not protecting a land target, because you could put a bigger and more sensitive radar there.
You're not protecting a fleet, because ship-borne radar came first...
So you're protecting an air target...?
And if you're protecting an air target against enemy air power, you're screwed. If there's anything for the Radar to detect, the blimp is going down in short order.

Ok, to your list.


You get more range with airborne not landbased radar. It is also mobile. Once you pay the development cost for a Zeppelin, it works.

The reason you use to with a fleet is more range. And more speed. You can have the Zeppelin rush out to scout for the fleet at speeds of 5-7 times your fastest carriers. And the ship cost about what a destroyer would, so losing it is not a big deal. And if you keep away from land and avoid the Japanese carriers (all 9 or so of them), it is invulnerable. So lets take some scenario besides Pearl early warning. Or Manila early warning. Very useful at coral sea type battle to find the enemy fleet. Same for Midway. Finding the Japanese carrier sooner can easily save ships.

Now it is probably not used with an air attack. Zeppelins can't carry that many planes and you know where German cities are at. It has limited role in an open type ocean hunting merchant ships. The key advantage is speed. You come into a theater at 150 miles per hour. You should simply be able to avoid enemy air power.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
How about blimps escorting allied atlantic convoys. They would give improved over the horizon scanning.

Totally useless if theres a Condor about and totally unnecessary once escort carriers are up and running. And also not needed once radar sets get small enough (and common enough) to be fitted into floatplanes from escorts

Or even just something like a barrage balloon lofted from a ship, anything really to get a bit more height to the radar set

Very useful. The condor does not carry enough ammunition to shoot down a Zeppelin. One key is size, you can basically fit a modern aircraft carrier inside of one. They are also big enough to carry fighters or weapons.

The reason you would use over float planes is duration. A plane stays up hours, the Zeppelin can stay up days.
 
A limited amount of fighter and weapons. Enough to repulse a reconaisance plane but from anything like a carrier, it's toast.

Although some very interesting points raised about ridge helium filled airships.
 
Imo only in a scenario were one side dominates the air war to a ridiculous amount. Otherwise the Zeps or Blimps or whatever are floating targets waiting to deflate...

Then again, in areas like off the US Atlantic or Pacific coasts, where there were no Nazi aircraft, they could have been very useful.
 
Imo only in a scenario were one side dominates the air war to a ridiculous amount. Otherwise the Zeps or Blimps or whatever are floating targets waiting to deflate...

This is OTL. In the 1941-45 Battle of the Atlantic, Allied dominance of the air was virtually complete, except for small areas adjacent to continental France. Airships could, and did, operate unmolested in the ASW role.

Nobody in their right mind would send airships into areas where long-range German fighters were a risk.
 
As for AEW, I fail to see how blimps would have much value in this role
maybe not so much against air targets, but more so for detecting naval targets.
remember that the higher you are the further your signal can reach (your horizon is further away). So it could detect enemy ships from much further away.
 
Top