Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I short of suspect in London, Athens and Beirut they will be quietly opening champagnes at the news...
In OTL the Bulgarians were given over 600 artillery pieces. The Romanians in comparison were given 250. But the Bulgarian army was at best used in the occupation of Greece and Yugoslavia. Which is another way of saying it makes no sense. But by the same token if these 600 guns are going to the Balkans anyway...
The Greeks are likely to fight tooth and nail for it. Which is both good and bad...
Effectively it is switching a medium bomber for something in the Mosquito class...
Actually the Germans so far do not have more divisions in the Balkans and Turkey than they did in OTL. It's 9 divisions total. Ok said divisions are having a rather more... lively life and include several mountain divisions...
France has fallen, the Greek incarnation of the plane is using license built Merlins. Overall I'm using Australia and Romania as a good example of what the Greeks should be plausibly managing. TTL Greece has very roughly half the industrial output of Australia and 20% more than Romania.
Kirkuk is still under German/Turkish control but shipping oil back to Germany is uhm logistically challenging.
But who is beneffiting more from Turkey getting its own version of the rasputitsa... which mind you is entirely historical, there is a reason neither the Greeks nor the Turks could condunct more that division sized operations in the winters of 1919-21..
Surely the Soviet Union is collapsing and then they can switch the 146 divisions they have in the East front elsewhere?
De Gaulle DID give up power twice to go tend his garden. And saved France fron utself in 1958. And FDR was trying to put in his place... former Vichyites?
If they did it was by accident, I did remember 17km but I'm not changing it. The eastern from is reasonably unchanged from OTL... so far but minor differences do exist.
Lend Lease and supplies to Greece are unavoidable, the public would not be amused if they learned the Greeks are left to starve and are not given weapons because its inconvenient...
I will only say that any delay in decolonization is not benefiting the European imperial powers. Not that it will matter in trying to cling to empire...
I'm uncertain what De Gaulle's policy over Algeria if he was the one setting it as opposed to inheriting a mess. I'm open to suggestions.
Hitler did have a case of hero worship for Kemal, see Ihrig's Ataturk in the Nazi Imagination for an account of it. Kemal... less so.
A lot. Not all. A trickle still keeps escaping towards the Aegean islands. Others have taken to the mountains...
Which sums up OTL Crusader. Compared to it the Germans and Italians have both advantages and disadvantages. No Tobruk either way...
They sent them in OTL as well, when it was much less excusable...
Hmm... no
Yeah every time you use an emoji it means that you're purposefully giving a wrong answer lol. Barbarossa is going mostly similarly to otl, so things are going to be mostly similar. Idk if the Germans could touch Moscow tho.Surely the Soviet Union is collapsing and then they can switch the 146 divisions they have in the East front elsewhere?
I mean Turkey needs to invade and move stuff around more while Greece just needs to stay in Smyrna.
FDR should just give him de Gaulle gardens if he hates him that much lol.
Another reason preventing German domination of Europe.
I'd think most books discussing Hitler post WWII would focus on Hitler and not on Atatürk. So it'd mostly be 'Atatürk is a shit person who inspired Hitler' would be the mainstream opinion of Atatürk.
Carrot and stick ?
Abolition of the Code de l'Indigénat, and citizenship for service ? Not quite sure exactly.
Officially the former was abolished from 1944 OTL while the latter was already prescribed by the Jonnart law in the 1920s. The thing is the policy of De Gaulle in 1958 and his opinions 10 or 15 years earlier are quite likely to be different. Do we know what he was thinking in 1945 or earlier? I would short of expect him to be an intergrationist not unlike Soustelle but haven't seen any concrete study on what they actually were.
Look up the Brazzaville Conference to have a good idea of De Gaulle's position on French Africa :
Less exploitation and more rights for the natives but no acceptation of any big move toward self-governement or autonomy.
And ATL the French would have more power to enforce this because there wouldn't be any occupation (Madagascar) or fighting (Mers el-Kebir, Dakar, Syria) in the French colonies with the Allies.
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The elephant in the room is of course citizenship. As long as frex the Muslim population of Algeria, or elsewhere is not getting the vote...
Regarding what exactly? I m sorry i didn't follow the conversation
As I understand it, the question is how de Gaulle would have felt about how to govern Algeria during the 1940s.
Before 1954? "Algeria is France". De gaulle was willing to negociate in indochina in 1945 because it was far away and not that profitable but Algeria was seen as a french region with more citizens than Auvergne. Even mendes france wasn't willing to negociate. You may have some concessions (citizenship for some, participation in some local elections, some taxes abolished) but that's it in the 1940's. Still it could quiet things down for a few years
Part 88
Pearl Harbour, December 7th, 1941
Two waves of Japanese aircraft, with 353 aircraft between them had attacked the US Pacific fleet in port achieving complete surprise. Of the 8 USN battleships in port all had been hit with varying degrees of damage, with only USS Pennsylvania remaining operational. Two more USS Tennessee and USS Maryland had suffered only moderate damage, both would be back in action by the coming February. One USS Nevada would be beached, she would remain out of action for 10 months as a result. The other four, USS Arizona, USS West Virginia, USS Oklahoma and USS California would be sunk outright, California and West Virginia would be eventually raised and returned to service in 1944. Of the seven USN aircraft carriers, three USS Enterprise, USS Wast and USS Ranger were with the Atlantic fleet and one, USS Hornet, was still working out. Of the three ships with the Pacific fleet, one, USS Saratoga, was in San Diego. USS Yorktown had left Pearl Harbour for Midway in December 5th, a fortunate coincidence. USS Lexington had not been as lucky, having returned to Pearl Harbour from a mission to carry aircraft to Wake island just the previous day, originally she was scheduled to return on December 5th but a storm had delayed her by a day. Hit by two torpedoes and several bombs "Lady Lex" would explode and sink with 216 dead. It had been a great success for Japanese arms. At the cost of 39 aircraft shot down the Kido Butai had knocked out 7 battleships and an aircraft carrier, sunk or damaged half a dozen more ships most notably USS Utah, and damaged or destroyed 397 aircraft, with US casualties of more than 2,600 dead including dozens of civilians.
Dublin, December 8th, 1941
Michael Collins read once more the telegraph by Winston Churchill. ‘Now is your chance’, it began. ‘Now or never. A Nation once again.’ He was tempted. Sorely tempted. And he was driving Ireland in that direction already. But the quiet negotiations ongoing for the past 18th months had not made much headway so far, the Orangist government in Belfast was unsurprisingly intransigent. But Winston was right here. And while he would not trust most of the British establishment he did see eye to eye with Churchill ever since 1922. And perhaps Churchill had not thought through all the implications of imminent entry of the United States in the world. More Irish lived in the States than in the mother country. If he acted not, before the US joined the war against Germany, how much public support he would gain in the United States? And how much would that matter in pushing the British to actually follow through with their promises? Perhaps little. But likely enough. Ireland declared war against Japan and Germany the same day...
Smyrna siege lines, December 9th, 1941
Following two weeks of intense artillery bombardment and numerous air strikes, the Axis air forces still held the uper hand in the near east and the Caucasus but only by a small margin which erroding, the Turkish, German and Italian divisions outside Smyrna attacked. The third assault on the city was underway...
Off Malaya, December 10th, 1941
The Japanese were attacking. Everywhere. In the past three days the list of Japanese attacks just kept growing. They had captured the Gilbert islands, invaded Hong Kong, invaded Thailand and made landings in the Philippines and Malaya, just to name the most significant operations so far. The Royal Navy squadron in Singapore under admiral Phillips with Hood, Prince of Wales and Ark Royal had sailed north to attack the landings, but had failed to locate the Japanese, thus turned back to return to Singapore, when its two battleships were located in turn by the Japanese. The Japanese were quick to launch over 80 aircraft, G4M and G3M bombers to attack the British ships only to be met by nearly two dozen Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes launched from Ark Royal. Over twenty bombers would be claimed by the FAA fighters and the two battleships anti-aircraft gunners, with the British ships returning to Singapore with nary a scratch. It wasn't much of a victory but it was the only one so far...
Berlin, December 11th, 1941
Germany declared war against the United States, Within hours she would be followed by Italy with Romania and Bulgaria declaring war the next day. Turkey and Hungary would wait till December 13th before declaring war but would finally succumb to the pressure of their allies. It could be even seen as convenient from the Allied point of view since it removed the need to push through the US congress a declaration of war against the European Axis powers...
Athens, December 11th, 1941
The consul-general of Japan in Athens, was not entirely surprised by the invitation, to the prime minister's office, he was half expecting it for the past several days.
"So it is war?"
"Greece will stand by our allies, following your country's aggression." Dragoumis confirmed.
The consul-general made a slight bow and left without another word. Dragoumis turned back to his other work. The entry of the United States to the war, long term could be decisive. But in the short term problems abounded. Not in the least, that with war in the Pacific significant forces from the Middle East were apparently going east and reinforcements initially slated for the Near East were instead being rerouted to fight the Japanese instead. Just the previous day he had been informed that the Australian government needed their three divisions in Syria back home. It was of course understandable. These didn't make the reduction of the allied army in Syria fighting the Turks almost by half any less problematic...
New York, December 12th, 1941
The ocean liner Normandie, had remained in the New York harbour since the fall of France, with an 150 man strong detail of the US Coast Guard aboard for the ship's protection and to remain where it was a cynic would add. But now, with the United States at war against both Japan and Germany, an 83,000t ship so fast it needed no escort of its own could not be left unused. The decision had been taken to seize the ship. Only when the coast guard went to eject the French crew there was a slight complication as her captain quietly pointed at the French flag with the cross of Lorraine his crew had raised overnight...
Alexandria, December 13th, 1941
The Italian submarine Scire quietly surfaced outside the harbour unleashing three manned torpedoes. A few hours later the harbour would be wracked by explosions as the limpet mines placed by Italian combat divers sunk the battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant and the ocean liner Megali Hellas. Human losses were minimal, lieutenant Luigi Durand de la Penne captured after placing his mine on Queen Elizabeth had warned its captain to evacuate after it was too late to stop the explosion. Overnight the allied fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean was left with a single battleship, Salamis, for the immediate future...
Barajas airport, Madrid, December 14th, 1941
A single RAF B-24 landed in the airport in the middle of night. The three passengers, immediately entered a car to be driven away somewhere, while the aircraft again took off. Juan Negrin, Segismundo Casado and Cipriano Mera were back in Spain...
Two waves of Japanese aircraft, with 353 aircraft between them had attacked the US Pacific fleet in port achieving complete surprise. Of the 8 USN battleships in port all had been hit with varying degrees of damage, with only USS Pennsylvania remaining operational. Two more USS Tennessee and USS Maryland had suffered only moderate damage, both would be back in action by the coming February. One USS Nevada would be beached, she would remain out of action for 10 months as a result. The other four, USS Arizona, USS West Virginia, USS Oklahoma and USS California would be sunk outright, California and West Virginia would be eventually raised and returned to service in 1944. Of the seven USN aircraft carriers, three USS Enterprise, USS Wast and USS Ranger were with the Atlantic fleet and one, USS Hornet, was still working out. Of the three ships with the Pacific fleet, one, USS Saratoga, was in San Diego. USS Yorktown had left Pearl Harbour for Midway in December 5th, a fortunate coincidence. USS Lexington had not been as lucky, having returned to Pearl Harbour from a mission to carry aircraft to Wake island just the previous day, originally she was scheduled to return on December 5th but a storm had delayed her by a day. Hit by two torpedoes and several bombs "Lady Lex" would explode and sink with 216 dead. It had been a great success for Japanese arms. At the cost of 39 aircraft shot down the Kido Butai had knocked out 7 battleships and an aircraft carrier, sunk or damaged half a dozen more ships most notably USS Utah, and damaged or destroyed 397 aircraft, with US casualties of more than 2,600 dead including dozens of civilians.
Dublin, December 8th, 1941
Michael Collins read once more the telegraph by Winston Churchill. ‘Now is your chance’, it began. ‘Now or never. A Nation once again.’ He was tempted. Sorely tempted. And he was driving Ireland in that direction already. But the quiet negotiations ongoing for the past 18th months had not made much headway so far, the Orangist government in Belfast was unsurprisingly intransigent. But Winston was right here. And while he would not trust most of the British establishment he did see eye to eye with Churchill ever since 1922. And perhaps Churchill had not thought through all the implications of imminent entry of the United States in the world. More Irish lived in the States than in the mother country. If he acted not, before the US joined the war against Germany, how much public support he would gain in the United States? And how much would that matter in pushing the British to actually follow through with their promises? Perhaps little. But likely enough. Ireland declared war against Japan and Germany the same day...
Smyrna siege lines, December 9th, 1941
Following two weeks of intense artillery bombardment and numerous air strikes, the Axis air forces still held the uper hand in the near east and the Caucasus but only by a small margin which erroding, the Turkish, German and Italian divisions outside Smyrna attacked. The third assault on the city was underway...
Off Malaya, December 10th, 1941
The Japanese were attacking. Everywhere. In the past three days the list of Japanese attacks just kept growing. They had captured the Gilbert islands, invaded Hong Kong, invaded Thailand and made landings in the Philippines and Malaya, just to name the most significant operations so far. The Royal Navy squadron in Singapore under admiral Phillips with Hood, Prince of Wales and Ark Royal had sailed north to attack the landings, but had failed to locate the Japanese, thus turned back to return to Singapore, when its two battleships were located in turn by the Japanese. The Japanese were quick to launch over 80 aircraft, G4M and G3M bombers to attack the British ships only to be met by nearly two dozen Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes launched from Ark Royal. Over twenty bombers would be claimed by the FAA fighters and the two battleships anti-aircraft gunners, with the British ships returning to Singapore with nary a scratch. It wasn't much of a victory but it was the only one so far...
Berlin, December 11th, 1941
Germany declared war against the United States, Within hours she would be followed by Italy with Romania and Bulgaria declaring war the next day. Turkey and Hungary would wait till December 13th before declaring war but would finally succumb to the pressure of their allies. It could be even seen as convenient from the Allied point of view since it removed the need to push through the US congress a declaration of war against the European Axis powers...
Athens, December 11th, 1941
The consul-general of Japan in Athens, was not entirely surprised by the invitation, to the prime minister's office, he was half expecting it for the past several days.
"So it is war?"
"Greece will stand by our allies, following your country's aggression." Dragoumis confirmed.
The consul-general made a slight bow and left without another word. Dragoumis turned back to his other work. The entry of the United States to the war, long term could be decisive. But in the short term problems abounded. Not in the least, that with war in the Pacific significant forces from the Middle East were apparently going east and reinforcements initially slated for the Near East were instead being rerouted to fight the Japanese instead. Just the previous day he had been informed that the Australian government needed their three divisions in Syria back home. It was of course understandable. These didn't make the reduction of the allied army in Syria fighting the Turks almost by half any less problematic...
New York, December 12th, 1941
The ocean liner Normandie, had remained in the New York harbour since the fall of France, with an 150 man strong detail of the US Coast Guard aboard for the ship's protection and to remain where it was a cynic would add. But now, with the United States at war against both Japan and Germany, an 83,000t ship so fast it needed no escort of its own could not be left unused. The decision had been taken to seize the ship. Only when the coast guard went to eject the French crew there was a slight complication as her captain quietly pointed at the French flag with the cross of Lorraine his crew had raised overnight...
Alexandria, December 13th, 1941
The Italian submarine Scire quietly surfaced outside the harbour unleashing three manned torpedoes. A few hours later the harbour would be wracked by explosions as the limpet mines placed by Italian combat divers sunk the battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant and the ocean liner Megali Hellas. Human losses were minimal, lieutenant Luigi Durand de la Penne captured after placing his mine on Queen Elizabeth had warned its captain to evacuate after it was too late to stop the explosion. Overnight the allied fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean was left with a single battleship, Salamis, for the immediate future...
Barajas airport, Madrid, December 14th, 1941
A single RAF B-24 landed in the airport in the middle of night. The three passengers, immediately entered a car to be driven away somewhere, while the aircraft again took off. Juan Negrin, Segismundo Casado and Cipriano Mera were back in Spain...
Circassians in Burma? It'd be cool at least.Now I want to see what Greece could spare for the Burma campaign
Pearl harbour is mostly otl but a functional Greek government doesn't really affect that. Dragoumis would be feeling the pinch due to allied forces moving out of the Med and into the SEA. But the Italians and Turks won't be able to do too much due to the Germans doing Barbarossa which should allow the Greeks to survive.
With the sinking of force Z by air power averted, I wonder if this will mean more focus on battleships from the Allies because the opponents of carriers can still play the "Pearl Harbor/Taranto only worked because you caught them in port with your pants down" card.
I would strongly disagree. She had the capacity to train probably 30,000+ gunners for the USN (going by the records of the USS Wyoming). Her loss hurt and made certain the Wyoming could never be recommissioned to active duty alongside her sister, the Arkansas, which, despite its age, saw extensive war service.
What is actually useful, trying to perma-kill a 14-16" Standard or wiping out a 7500+/year AA gunner training capacity? I'm pretty biased to the latter.
So, the big difference with OTL Pearl Harbour raid is that the Japanese have sunk an aircraft carrier besides the battleships (and as result they sufferd slightly more casualties). The loss of Lexington will be offset (partially) however by the presence of Ark Royal in the Pacific plus the survival of the 2 British battleships. I hope that leads the Amricans being lesscocky against the British...
Also, Ireland is not going to participate very actively in the war (at least at first) but the logistics for the Allied anti-submarine campaign will be much simpler with the usage of Irish ports and airports. I would like to see however an Irish brigade participate in the liberation of France!
Finally, ΗΝ Salamis the only active Allied battleship in the Med? That is a nice bargaining chip for Dragoumis (but also an enormous pressure on the HN). How many Italian battleships are active at this time ITTL?
Also, Ireland is not going to participate very actively in the war (at least at first) but the logistics for the Allied anti-submarine campaign will be much simpler with the usage of Irish ports and airports. I would like to see however an Irish brigade participate in the liberation of France!
Finally, ΗΝ Salamis the only active Allied battleship in the Med? That is a nice bargaining chip for Dragoumis (but also an enormous pressure on the HN). How many Italian battleships are active at this time ITTL?
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