Well they still have interior lines , good operational leadership , and the distances involved are still rather big. Long term the Allies can of course win. But obviously they are not thinking longterm. So haste can lead to defeat in the midterm.
It's just that if they cut off Constantinople and disrupt Adana (not to mention the fact that Turkey has a lot less money to build up industry) Turkey has no capability to produce enough stocks to deal with both armies.Well they still have interior lines , good operational leadership , and the distances involved are still rather big. Long term the Allies can of course win. But obviously they are not thinking longterm. So haste can lead to defeat in the midterm.
I think that while such offer would perhaps have been received with with bigger interest if the Soviet situation would be other with the Germans expelled from the Rodina... But, at this stage of the war, more than the effects of a possible separated peace terms with the Soviets, beyond of the Turkish leadership, IMO, wishful thinking like or ill placed trust in their enemies pragmatism at the time of negotiating. What, would would be key is that the Turkish should be more worried on what at this stage, could they realistically offer/hand over, to the Soviets, that they would believe that they'd get any chances of success...That “Soviet betrayal” could complete change the outcome of the war. They gained the straits only to turn Greece against them in perpetuity. Operation Unthinkable becomes a lot more thinkable. Not because of the straits specifically, but because the Soviets have shown they can’t be trusted to be a team player.
Now obviously just because the Turks want it, doesn’t necessarily mean it will happen. But if it does what the world looks like post war is much less certain.
Tbf I think the Turks will calculate incorrectly by trusting the Soviets. The Soviets (I think) would calculate correctly that not pushing their control to the east would be detrimental to their long term survival, and push for the Hellespont and Constantinople to continue being international (perhaps split between wally and the Soviets in a west-east fashion) territory and giving the allies consessions in more control over Anatolia for exchange for Turkey being 'their ally'.I think that while such offer would perhaps have been received with with bigger interest if the Soviet situation would be other with the Germans expelled from the Rodina... But, at this stage of the war, more than the effects of a possible separated peace terms with the Soviets, beyond of the Turkish leadership, IMO, wishful thinking like or ill placed trust in their enemies pragmatism at the time of negotiating. What, would would be key is that the Turkish should be more worried on what at this stage, could they realistically offer/hand over, to the Soviets, that they would believe that they'd get any chances of success...
Or putting it in another way... What could possibly the Soviets would get from the Turkish that would be worth to sidelining their Western Allies,that they couldn't get either in the battlefield or later at the negotiating table?
Also, I think that at this stage that the Soviets and Stalin particularly, would be more interested/would consider that in this scenario, 'd be the certain possibility that they wouldn't get any say on any future peace negotiations/political arrangements on TTL postwar future of the M. E.
Specifically, about the future of Eastern/South Eastern Anatolia, any eventual new sates to be formed and/or on the Iranian future postwar borders, in particular, to be made in the future by the Wallies.
I think it's fairly likely at this point, they may be some ways away from the european side of the city right now but they're relatively close to the asian side and once they have boots on the ground there they can either use it as a staging ground to get to the european side or swap it for the european side once the dust has settled and the war is overHow realistic do you guys think it would be for Greece to at least get European Constantinople? That's where all the important Byzantine stuff is, so Greece would be particularly invested in at least that.
Tbf I see the Soviets being fussy about European Constantinople but in practice they really could do nothing about it. I see them attempting to make it international territory tho.I think it's fairly likely at this point, they may be some ways away from the european side of the city right now but they're relatively close to the asian side and once they have boots on the ground there they can either use it as a staging ground to get to the european side or swap it for the european side once the dust has settled and the war is over
OK. Martyrs is a good word. But i had to dig deep to find the meaning.sehitler
??? Roasted coffee?Small mustache sipped his roasted coffee
mettlePeker does not have the meddle of a statesman
I think the only thing the turks don't want is the Greeks holding Constantinople to sow discord, and in order to do this they need the Soviets to do it.To be honest I am puzzled...
The Turks have finally accepted they will lose Constantinople for ever, but they will trade it for a separate peace with the Soviets, as the Wallies (so they think) will not accept a separate peace with Turkey because of Greece. But in order to obtain this, they will aske the German army to occupy Constantinople, so that the Turkish army will evacuate in Anatolia, and then Turkey will facilitate the movement of the Soviet army towards Constantinople, where the Soviets will have to fight the Germans!
Wouldn't it be easier to trade Constantinople to get a separate peace with the Wallies, without all this confusion?
With Constantinople in the hands of the Wallies (and a slight border "correction" in Asia Minor), why wouldn't Greece accept a separate peace?
In Islamic cultures şehitler (shehitler) means nartyr and is used to mean anybody who died in battle fighting initially for the Chalif, now for the state. The term in some places, i.e Turkey, has now been broadened to mean anybody who died in service for the state (including accidents during fire-fightong or military setcice) , a rather broad interpetration.OK. Martyrs is a good word. But i had to dig deep to find the meaning.
Googling the term gave me two cities and a football player, all with diacritical - Şehitler.
Plugging THAT into Wiktionary.org gave no dirtect hits, but some of the indirect ones let me figure out the meaning.
The general idea IS clear from context, but my first guess was 'heroes', then 'The Fallen'.
??? Roasted coffee?
Do you mean dark roast? All coffee is roasted.
Or is this a term for coffee made in an ibrik, say.
mettle
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While one can tell that English probably isn't your native language, it isn't really obvious. And it's most certainly better than MY secondary languages!!!!
Honestly I think that Greece will eventually get the entirety of the city back, but I think it will be in a piecemeal fashion over a long period of time. Let’s say that the city itself is broken up into occupation zones similar to Berlin. I even expect Greece to have an occupation zone in such a scenario even if it’s a hodgepodge of important cultural locations and not really a population area. Eventually the western allies are going to transfer it to a friendly power like they did with OTL Western Berlin. Probably with some specific agreements about respecting mosques and treating the remaining Turks, however negligible an amount, as equals. As for Eastern Constantinople, it’s likely to be surrounded on all sides by Greece. It’s likely to be where many Greek communists go. Greek communists who have already shown in the war that the homeland can come before the cause. Some of these will inevitably be spies reporting each and every thing to Athen. I don’t even think the inevitable Russian settlers would bother them. They’d want all their city, even if they had to wait decades. If the ATL future resembles ours to a similar degree, I think the moment swan lake hits the airwaves in the 90’s we could see the Greek Army making a dash for whatever Soviet territories are in the area. The Soviets would inevitably threaten a response about it but once Greece controls the area I doubt NATO I going to want to give up control of the straights. And I don’t think the Soviets are in any position to challenge it at that point.How realistic do you guys think it would be for Greece to at least get European Constantinople? That's where all the important Byzantine stuff is, so Greece would be particularly invested in at least that.
Aside from whatever would be their chances to be successful in any diplomatic overture to the Soviets. I think, that the Turkish leader would be misreading, at least partially, the situation and all of its possible consequences.But you know what Ismet. I think the Greeks, despite their romantic madness know they will not get it. That is why that romantic Dragoumis put Stergiadi bey into the prime-ministership. Stergiadi bey is no romantic. He is a practical man, and one known to be willing to defy popular opinion. He is a good statesman, he will take the fall for the good of his country.
This is why I think now, rather than later we must start the plans to make peace. Now that the Greeks have their ardor cut off, and have a pragmatic person for prime minister. That might cut out some of the rancor of the Western governments, and give us some leeway to negotiate with Moscow.”
Tbf my guess is that Constantinople gets partitioned between the west and the Soviets with the Greeks gradually gain more power over the European bits of the City due to fears of the Turks trying anything funny if they police the City. Added with the fact that the Turks should be staging something in Cyprus and I'm pretty sure the west wouldn't trust them at all.Honestly I think that Greece will eventually get the entirety of the city back, but I think it will be in a piecemeal fashion over a long period of time. Let’s say that the city itself is broken up into occupation zones similar to Berlin. I even expect Greece to have an occupation zone in such a scenario even if it’s a hodgepodge of important cultural locations and not really a population area. Eventually the western allies are going to transfer it to a friendly power like they did with OTL Western Berlin. Probably with some specific agreements about respecting mosques and treating the remaining Turks, however negligible an amount, as equals. As for Eastern Constantinople, it’s likely to be surrounded on all sides by Greece. It’s likely to be where many Greek communists go. Greek communists who have already shown in the war that the homeland can come before the cause. Some of these will inevitably be spies reporting each and every thing to Athen. I don’t even think the inevitable Russian settlers would bother them. They’d want all their city, even if they had to wait decades. If the ATL future resembles ours to a similar degree, I think the moment swan lake hits the airwaves in the 90’s we could see the Greek Army making a dash for whatever Soviet territories are in the area. The Soviets would inevitably threaten a response about it but once Greece controls the area I doubt NATO I going to want to give up control of the straights. And I don’t think the Soviets are in any position to challenge it at that point.
That’s assuming they’re not traded to the Greeks for concessions of some sort or another at another point. Seeing as Turkeys status as a NATO member is questionable to say the least, there’s a very good chance Greece becomes the home of NATO’s nuclear arsenal in that area. Or maybe it doesn’t if the Soviets are willing to give them enough incentive not to.
Tbf I agree, but I think the Turks mean it as 'we've lost and the Greek leader isn't a nutcase'. At this point the Turks just hate the Greeks. They've taken away Ionia, preventing them from industrialising, prevented their allies from controlling all of Europe and making their resupply tenous (I think everyone thought the Germans had a chance of destroying the USSR) and preventing them from getting Cyprus (they caused the Brits to stop trusting them). Greece is personal, the other great powers just have interests they can leverage.Aside from whatever would be their chances to be successful in any diplomatic overture to the Soviets. I think, that the Turkish leader would be misreading, at least partially, the situation and all of its possible consequences.
Cause, I tend to think that a 'pragmatic' at the heel of the Greek State, pursuing a likewise agenda and coordinating with their allies. It, couldn't be considered as 'good news' neither for their present war effort nor for the postwar Turkish perspectives, but rather the contrary.
Given that, I can envision a postwar scenario, where for no push for/renouncing to challenge whatever decision that would be agreed on the Allies conferences/negotiations, on the Straits future status.
The new Prime Minister of Greece could perhaps, with bigger chances of success, ask/push for and to get, otherwise highly unlikely, concessions/compensations, for TTL post war Greece, from their Allies.