While it was labor intensive for the Europeans but since China has a higher population than those on the other side of the world... yeah.
Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
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I was talking about Europe making itself destitute by engaging in warfare as intense as Japan's Sengoku period without much of a peacetime economy to go back to.
It doesn't help that it's much akin to hell freezing over from the Chinese perspective, especially when you are talking about the even more insular Northerners. Or – from the assumption that it is a crisis that never ended – they can say that this is very much a COVID or Genpei War-tier SHTF.
Having unawashed barbarians set-up shop within, or even take over China proper is one thing. Actively hacking-off territory considered Chinese for centuries by arousing disloyalty in favour of a foreign sovereign, let alone doing that through a pretense of congruence or equivalence with the government of the Huangdi - is not just merely reprehensible, but something actually alien from Chinese culture; even during the times of foreign dynasties, the territorial integrity of China Proper has never been put into question.
Besides, China sure will never be able to absorb Japan and Korea, as it's those two nations - not themselves - that hold the military might and capital to fuck anyone over, and also espouse proto-nationalistic convictions at that.
Those new imperialist powers engaging the parcelling through Ming tutelage – while being intimately aware of and influenced by it – will also make so many deep-seated assumptions that the Chinese have long taken for granted farcical, whether it be from the cold political calculus of the Neoconfucianism political philosophy, or their Taoist cosmology. After all, both Japan and Korea are equipped enough to get way with much more than the British ever did IOTL.
And then - there's also the matter of the Cantonese in Iriebashi answering not just before the highly-autonomous administrations of the domains, but also before three sovereigns: the Chinese Huangdi, the Oda King, and the Japanese Mikado. The only saving grace in this situation right now is that they were still not being made, even merely asked to pledge allegiance before those potential sovereigns, what with everyone and their mothers being far-more concerned with land ownership and the extraction of food and other resources from it.
I'm making a point that the politics of the "Greater Sinosphere" ITTL will make for quite a number of several "Diplomatic Revolutions" that will – while ultimately binding the region together from the increasingly mutual familiarisation and globalisation not unlike what happened in Europe – very much make for an atmosphere of "permanently interesting times".
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China prob have it's borders be shut after the silver crash as per otl and not care about anything outside it's borders, especially the northerners would think that way, while the cantonese and co would want to trade with the rest of Europe and cause a break between the northerners and southerners, and as the south becomes prosperous and more technologically advanced I could see them breaking off with some patrons same with Shanghai while Northern China proper is affected by the Koreans wanting a piece.
China being split between the north, south, the middle (Shanghai) and xichuan would be very interesting and we'd have a European esque power structure, and it'd affect a lot of things if it goes that way. Especially when everyone wants a piece of the pie while the local actors do their best for themselves.
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If you're talking Theravada and Mahayana, there have been exchanges and debates between visiting monks and priests from Japan and SEA. A pilgrimage tradition from Japan is also developing, although interrupted by the Iberian-Japanese War.
For the record most of the Chinese in Bireitou are Fujianese, Cantonese immigrants make up a tiny sliver.Japan, Korea, and Siam be like:
Just come to think of it: the Cantonese are increasingly getting a hold of the concept of Japanese provincial ownership (知行 - Chigyo) in Bireitou, while both Korea and Siam are realising their potential to become states that can truly swing their power around. While the latter may just want a captive market and deferential relations to wave their dick around, the former may actually want the cheap grain and other raw materials coming from Central China.
With the Chinese - being so stuck in Confucian snobbishness - likewise making it unable to capitalise on its population so as to have its finances ripped off by graft and dubious mark-ups, they can very well find themselves selling off concessions and actual entitlements to its lands and its resources so as to attract overseas mercenaries to fight for them - or worse - oversee the effective scramble over the entire empire under the nominally legal tutelage of the Ming!
Like - the resulting copium by the local Han supremacists will likewise be off-the-charts!
The Taungoo Myanma kingdom (Burma is nonexistent in terminology ITTL) experienced internal turmoil IOTL and ITTL in the early 17th century. It's still a formidable kingdom and hence will continue to be Siam's most immediate geopolitical rival.
The immediate challenge for Ming China is that Japan is basically doing whatever it wants while still nominally paying homage to the Ming emperor. Obviously under no circumstance does China wants its own trade controlled by a foreign power as that does undermine the principles of the state. Nevertheless, Bireitou (as Taiwan) wasn't claimed or controlled by China until 1683 aside from the Penghu Islands which ITTL Japan is not laying its hands on.
IOTL, China never had a tributary state be as aggressively expansionist as TTL's Japan is right now, and so close to its borders, and how the Ming responds to the new situation will establish new precedents and chart a new direction for the realm.
Considering that some Japanese would
travel through Johor and brunei would there be Buddhist temples popping up there? Also I would think that we'd even see wealthy Zen Buddhists go to Sri Lanka at least as a learning experience.
I agree, but I do think Cantonese would still be used as a Lingua Franca of the southern Chinese as per otl, and the cantonese will be affected by the Japanese due to trade ties.
Ah ok and it does make sense for the Burmese to be strong even with the technological advantages Thailand has.
Also that I'm using Burmese as a shorthand for a state that is the state of Burma otl.
Would China even claim the islands that they claimed otl? They claimed it while under the qing which was an expansionist power. Considering that we'd get a longer lasting Ming dynasty is very possible (the reforms seemed to be done better and should keep the state afloat) the timing would be all wrong. I could see China be in civil war or be under the last emperor of the Ming or something.
Unless China and Japan quarrel over some islands I don't think China would think about it. The imijin war also didn't happen so I think they'll just continue as 'I'm the juggernaut so if you cross me you're fucked' kinda attitude, and I think Japan wouldn't fuck with China at this point in history. The Japanese would still not try to fight them unless the Chinese go for beiritou or tell the Japanese to get out of the ryukus completely. And only if they decide to go to war and the Chinese lose then the Chinese will think about it. Or just be as stubborn as ever and not change.
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Ah ok, that may happen but who knows.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter option so... yeah.
Considering otl Europe I don't think they'll fight until nothings left. After all even with the thirty year's war they did stop eventually. Total wars only occur in the 20th century for a good reason, and most of Europe won't fight that kind of war because they still do care about the economy.
Option two is a distinct possibility especially if not a lot of men die and it's basically a naval war where the Japanese can defo defend their interests.
Possibly, it depends on the religious policies of the sultanates in that area and how they would view Buddhism in general.
The Yuan first established jurisdiction over the Penghu Islands in 1281. The Japanese aren't really interested in the islands in the first place and they wanna avoid unnecessary conflict.
In terms of the Ryukyu Kingdom, the Shimazu invasion of 1609 never happened so it's technically independent but it's heavily influenced by Japan, and since Japan agreed to be a tributary of the Ming in 1607 it's not going to go after the Ryukyu archipelago anytime soon.
yeah that does make sense. I do think Johore and Brunei would be ambivalent at first tho, and I'd think the temples would pop up in trade cities first.
I think if the Japanese were denied access to the ports of Ryuku or they have to pay a lot more to use the ports Japan would use their navy to protect their rights.
I really hope China is not balkanized and does successfully modernizes ITTL
China screws are rather tiresome to me specially when done in the name of "Balance of Powers", as if we dont get enough europeanism as it is, or "but they're too snob!" when Korea was just as confucian and I dont think I have to get started on how snobbish both Imperial Japan and the european powers were
Rather I'd like a united China - though I do think the idea of one centered around Canton is cool - that is strong and modern but is still matched by other asian powers like Japan, Korea & co due to them being more modernized, dynamic and working together towards their own goals, after all this is a Japan-focused TL
China screws are rather tiresome to me specially when done in the name of "Balance of Powers", as if we dont get enough europeanism as it is, or "but they're too snob!" when Korea was just as confucian and I dont think I have to get started on how snobbish both Imperial Japan and the european powers were
Rather I'd like a united China - though I do think the idea of one centered around Canton is cool - that is strong and modern but is still matched by other asian powers like Japan, Korea & co due to them being more modernized, dynamic and working together towards their own goals, after all this is a Japan-focused TL
Frankly a modernized China cannot be matched by anyone else in Asia sans India. That is fact. You cannot escape that.
I disagree, having a headstart can do wonders and considering how 80s Japan made the US freak out(granted, it was a paper tiger) I dont think its all that implausible for them to still match a modernized China with said headstart
That not taking into account colonial adventures which Im still not quite sure wheter the author will go for or not
The US of 1980 cannot compare to what a fully powered up China is. The US could in some fashion have been maybe surpassed by Japan since Japan's population in 1980 was about only half the US's population.
Thus when I say a fully modernized China, I'm saying a China which has a similar level of economic development for all its hundreds of millions of people to the same degree that Japan does and the economic productivity from it.
Fact of the matter is that China? That China makes Asia its bitch. Let's look at basic numbers. In 1700, the Chinese population, was 150 million. The Japanese population was 29 million. Frankly the only possible way Japan ever stands a chance against China even if you add in countries like Siam, Korea, and Vietnam, is if China lags behind them significantly in some way or another, basically like how Russia was always lagging behind Western Europe socially and technologically and they all dreaded its sheer size crushing them. Because it's a fact, if a large country reaches technological and social parity with its formerly more advanced but smaller neighbours, it will said neighbours and spit them out.
So frankly I proposed the balkanization of China because China properly modernizing is the end for any future of East Asia that isn't Chinese domination. This can be in various forms. China could never enter its Qing expansionism and remain locked to its Ming borders, which while the strongest individual player in East Asia, can be maybe fought by the other countries somewhat. Or if circumstances emerge such, China could splinter again as it has in the past and during that splintered time, its neighbours pounce to get as much of China as they can before parts of it reunify. This is what I am personally hoping for as it means a more diverse and interesting to explore East Asia rather than China blobbing over most of it.
I dont think we are in disagreement here
Im not asking China to reach technological or social parity with Japan here, Im saying Japan SHOULD be leagues ahead economically & technologically
My point is that I dont think you need China to be broken down or remain de-industrialized to accomplish that, I think they can modernize and Japan still will have centuries of headstart thanks to they already being upgrading themselves here while the chinese still deal with the Ming
So make China the 'Russia' of the East Asia balance of power? Largest population and area, but struggling to maximize its potential due to being so far behind and that same size?
Possible if China remains severely isolationist and lags far behind Japan, Korea, Siam, and Vietnam. However this is contingent upon a native Chinese dynasty remaining in control. If the Qing rise, the rest of Asia is fucked and made China's bitch again.
Yup
I was going by the assumption that the Qing got butterflied considering how badly the Ming kicked the jurchens asses here
Of course its not impossible it could still happen or for China to take a expansionist route again, but as long the Ming remain in power or are succeeded by someone that stick to their external policies I think Japan will be fine here
A Canton-dominated China is a China a few steps away from splintering given how the south has historically had a different identity from the north.Besides I did say I like the idea of a Canton-dominated China so if a northern dynasty takes over again that'd throw a wrench to my southern dreams
It's less about China being a player and more that China becomes the only real player in Asia if allowed to fully reach its potential.