No Erie Canal

What would the effects be on the Northeast if the Erie Canal had never been constructed?

Even though my initial POD is more military, my question is more of an economic one. Let's say the War of 1812 goes swimmingly for Britain and the new border is the Mohawk River-Lake Oneida-Oneida River-Lake Ontario in New York state.

I assume that instead Britain builds an earlier St. Lawrence Seaway and more locks connecting Lake Champlain to the St. Lawrence because the Americans won't be able to put up a fuss like they did OTL.

Does New York City become as dominant as it did in OTL? How would this affect settlement patterns further west?

Just a few thoughts.
 
If there wasn't an Erie Canal, then the Amerians would build a railway instead.

Not sure whether this would go any faster or slower than the building of the canal, but that's what all the other states did to connect themselves with other major waterways.
 
If there wasn't an Erie Canal, then the Amerians would build a railway instead.

Not sure whether this would go any faster or slower than the building of the canal, but that's what all the other states did to connect themselves with other major waterways.

No doubt that would have happened, but that would be decades after the completeion of the OTL Erie Canal. Most of the trade on the Great Lakes was sent by barge to the huge markets of New York (and shipped beyond from there).

But in TTL, everything north and west of Albany will probably be sent north via the St. Lawrence to Montreal.

New York City will probably still be a hugely important city (and even a much more powerful Montreal can't catch it for a long, long time, if ever) but maybe more north eastern cities vie for power with New York when its dominance isn't absolute. Philadelphia and Baltimore might be enlarged, and western New York cities like Buffalo, Syracuse and Rochester don't become as strong in the short term.
 
I'm thinking that if War of 1812 goes that swimmingly for the Brits, the Northeast has more to worry about than a canal.

I'm guessing that this means the northwest territory is now in the hands of the Brits. This means west of Lake Michigan (Wisconsin/Minnesota) likely becomes Canadian. hard to take western NY without western PA. Do they get Ohio, too? If they're taking the west, they're also taking the northern regions, too.

Anyhow, I'm guessing all that isn't the point (which seems NY centric). More to the point, the Albany region doesn't blossom. Central NY is basically just a backwater. Northern NY is Canadian. NYC will still be important, but the Hudson River trade is far less.

The west end of the OTL canal (now St Lawrence Seaway) still develops, but the profits are going to Canada instead of the US.
 
I'm thinking that if War of 1812 goes that swimmingly for the Brits, the Northeast has more to worry about than a canal.

I'm guessing that this means the northwest territory is now in the hands of the Brits. This means west of Lake Michigan (Wisconsin/Minnesota) likely becomes Canadian. hard to take western NY without western PA. Do they get Ohio, too? If they're taking the west, they're also taking the northern regions, too.

Anyhow, I'm guessing all that isn't the point (which seems NY centric). More to the point, the Albany region doesn't blossom. Central NY is basically just a backwater. Northern NY is Canadian. NYC will still be important, but the Hudson River trade is far less.

The west end of the OTL canal (now St Lawrence Seaway) still develops, but the profits are going to Canada instead of the US.

Wot? Erie Canal was after the War of 1812, so Britain can't take them.

OP is asking for effects, not an AHC.
 
OP set an alternate TL where the Brits win the War of 1812 and readjusted the border between US and Canada.

although, re-reading the OP, it seems like the border is adjusted only east to west, whereas I initially read it north-south.

I still say if the war went swimmingly for Britain (Gunslinger's words), that would mean Britain does not get booted out of the Northwest territory (which they held - parts of - even though technically they had given in up in the revolution, and which was one of the reasons for the War of 1812). this would have economic and further territorial ramifications for Canada and the US.
 
seems to me I read on AH that there was another proposed canal (Pennsylvania?) that never went through as the Erie satisfied the need. Without the Erie, and if the borders still allow it, I'm guessing that alternate canal gets the green light.
 
There was the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal. But there was a reason it was never completed OTL, it's a lot harder to build a canal there than across Central and Western NY. Even the stretch along the Potomac is arguably more difficult than the stretch of the Erie Canal that paralleled the Mohawk. If you look at a topo map you can see why.

But setting that aside I would have the same questions about how the whole western frontier would shape up in such a scenario. It seems more like a counter-factual than an Alt History POD. For example Western NY would be a hard position for the US to hold without also controlling the Mohawk valley or Oswego. Seems like a the British would almost certainly take Fort Niagara which would bookend WNY. American supply lines would probably have to follow the Cherry Valley Turnpike but at that point it went no further west than Cazenovia IIRC. But if the British take WNY then why not, say Erie PA with its harbor, where do you draw the line. Maybe a more reasonable frontier would be the Black River then across the Adirondacks to the south end of Lake Champlain. The British neutralize Sacketts Harbor and take Fort Ticonderoga to guard the approaches to Canada. But that still leaves the issue of Michigan and the old Northwest.

So I think the US connections to the interior would really be dictated, at least to some extent, by what territory the US still held in the Northwest. But I suppose if we just go with it and if we assume that the US somehow holds together after a crushing defeat and the loss of such strategic territory the Ohio and Cumberland is the logical direction to take. It may become enough of a strategic imperative that it gets built with great difficulty (compared to OTL Erie Canal). But then the question becomes one of funding and control. If the economic imperative isn't enough to fund it's much higher cost through private investment, and the individual states won't do it (its path crosses several), would it form an early public work of the Federal government? Such a move would almost certainly be extremely controversial for an era when the Federal government simply didn't do that sort of thing. But again as a strategic imperative to secure the Ohio from the British perhaps they push it through.

So the implications there are huge, the Federal government builds and then controls the primary access point to the west. It sets the precedent that the Feds can and should take on huge public works and creates new methods of funding (do they issue new Federal Canal Bonds against future toll revenue, get creative on taxation etc) it also makes the Federal capital of Washington DC the outlet to all that commerce. So DC will rival Philadelphia pretty quickly, truly a phoenix from the ashes of the War of 1812.

Meanwhile Pittsburgh combines its OTL position with that of OTL Buffalo NY as the western terminus of the Canal and quickly becomes America's second city. This probably alters the whole canal system in Ohio. The Ohio and Erie Canal may not be built for the same reason that people were at first against the Oswego Canal, as they feared a canal connection to the north would drain commerce away to Canada. So Cleveland probably doesn't develop as well either.
 
New York City will probably still be a hugely important city (and even a much more powerful Montreal can't catch it for a long, long time, if ever)
Why can't Montreal catch up? In the 1770s the population comparison was about 10K to 22K, which went to 18K to 33K in the 1790s. Not a huge gap in that time period.
 
It's kinda obvious but if western New York is a little-trafficked backwater, than the various religious and social movements that arise in the "Burnt Over District" don't happen. Or if they happen, they don't spread, thanks to the huge amounts of people moving to the area for work or moving through it.

So, no Mormonism? No Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses? And while I'm sure the feminism and abolitionism will be born elsewhere in the states, it won't be there.

I don't think you need the War of 1812 to kill or push it back either. Simply have the New York Legislature decide against it in 1817.
 
seems to me I read on AH that there was another proposed canal (Pennsylvania?) that never went through as the Erie satisfied the need. Without the Erie, and if the borders still allow it, I'm guessing that alternate canal gets the green light.

The Appalachians mountains are in the way. For all the vaunted engineering prowess of the Portage Railway it is wildly impracticable to link East and West PA via canal.
 
What would the effects be on the Northeast if the Erie Canal had never been constructed?

Even though my initial POD is more military, my question is more of an economic one. Let's say the War of 1812 goes swimmingly for Britain and the new border is the Mohawk River-Lake Oneida-Oneida River-Lake Ontario in New York state.

I assume that instead Britain builds an earlier St. Lawrence Seaway and more locks connecting Lake Champlain to the St. Lawrence because the Americans won't be able to put up a fuss like they did OTL.

Does New York City become as dominant as it did in OTL? How would this affect settlement patterns further west?

Just a few thoughts.

Well, for one, I honestly can't see New York State staying together in one piece after a catastrophic loss of territory on that level: at some point afterwards, it will likely splinter into at least two states, possibly three(and then, what if New England secedes? If this happens after the three-state scenario, I can definitely see the middle state deciding to throw their lot in with the Yankees).

New York City does still become quite important, but without that canal, it could take substantially longer for it to become a true metropolis.
 
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