I know there’s been a bunch of threads on it, but I do wonder what the effects of a Charlemagne/Irene and Constantine VI/Rotrude match would be? Both in the immediate aftermath, and how it would be viewed historically?
To add on to Rotrude’s importance, let’s say Charlemagne never marries Desiderata (and there’s nothing indicating he’s ever married Himiltrude) so she’s a daughter from a first marriage.
If things go well and Constantine VI and Irene get married by proxy in 786 (she was only 6 at the time), that’s already good for their relations. She’d probably get sent over by 792.
Assuming Irene keeps co-ruling with him and doesn’t have him deposed for the sake of her daughter-in-law, what would happen if in 802, she gets married to Charlemagne, making it her second, and his fourth marriage? Assuming her nor Constantine get deposed, she dies in 803, and he dies before 805 (so December 31st, 804 at the latest).
What does that mean for Charlemagne, the official Roman Emperor, as well as Rotrude, who has only had one child, a girl, named Euphrosyne. (Going by OTL.) does Nikephoros seize the throne after their deaths?
If so, and assuming Byzantine history goes as IOTL, does Euphrosyne being the spouse of Emperor Michael II mean anything for either the Franks or Byzantines? Does Michael officially abandon iconoclasm? (He wasn’t a fanatic, but former patriarch Nikophoros, and Theodore of Stoudios failed to convince him to fully abandon the policy.)
(After all, she’d be raised Greek Orthodox, sure, but her mother would be a Catholic, and her grandfather would be Charlemagne, so is it possible she might convince Michael?)
If we go by all children Constantine IV/Rotrude had, there’s:
Euphrosyne (C)
Irene (C) (became a nun)
Leo (C) (second wife, died in infancy)
Unnamed son (C) (died between 3 and 11)
Louis (R, illegitimate) 800-867 (became an abbot)
If she has Louis (or an equivalent) with Constantine, would he succeed his father on the throne? Assuming he stayed on for life, it would butterfly 7 Emperors: Nikephoros I, Staurakios, Michael I, Leo V, Michael II, Theophilos, and Michael III, extending the Isaurian dynasty 65 years, and butterflying the Nikephorian and Amorian dynasties.
In the case of Louis, what would it look to his contemporaries (and to us in the modern day) that a direct, close descendant of Charlemagne was Byzantine Emperor, especially for 62 years?
Want would it look like if this were repeated about a century later when Zoë Porphyrogenita marries Otto III, HRE, have no children, and live until 1050? Another non-lasting union between the Western and Eastern Roman Empires could certainly change how they’re both view in modernity, especially as they have distinct periods of unification. Bonus points if Zoë’s sister Theodora marries future HRE Henry III in 1028.
Constantine IV/Rotrude 786-804
Louis (or Greek equivalent) 804-867
Zoë/Otto 996-1050
Theodora/Henry 1028-1056
What do 139-141 years of HRE/Byzantine union look like? Especially nowadays? Would it be the same decline but with different names, or could there be further changes, especially if Henry has his heirs from OTL? Not sure how Byzantine succession goes once it’s not father to son, so once Henry’s line dies out, it’s a crapshoot, but including his direct descendants, there’s: Henry IV (1056-1106) and Henry V (1106-1125) which bumps up the HRE/Byzantine Empire union to 208-210 years. Which would change not only the history of both empires, but transform how we view the separation of the Roman Empire as there would then be 2 clear periods in history when they reunited.
To add on to Rotrude’s importance, let’s say Charlemagne never marries Desiderata (and there’s nothing indicating he’s ever married Himiltrude) so she’s a daughter from a first marriage.
If things go well and Constantine VI and Irene get married by proxy in 786 (she was only 6 at the time), that’s already good for their relations. She’d probably get sent over by 792.
Assuming Irene keeps co-ruling with him and doesn’t have him deposed for the sake of her daughter-in-law, what would happen if in 802, she gets married to Charlemagne, making it her second, and his fourth marriage? Assuming her nor Constantine get deposed, she dies in 803, and he dies before 805 (so December 31st, 804 at the latest).
What does that mean for Charlemagne, the official Roman Emperor, as well as Rotrude, who has only had one child, a girl, named Euphrosyne. (Going by OTL.) does Nikephoros seize the throne after their deaths?
If so, and assuming Byzantine history goes as IOTL, does Euphrosyne being the spouse of Emperor Michael II mean anything for either the Franks or Byzantines? Does Michael officially abandon iconoclasm? (He wasn’t a fanatic, but former patriarch Nikophoros, and Theodore of Stoudios failed to convince him to fully abandon the policy.)
(After all, she’d be raised Greek Orthodox, sure, but her mother would be a Catholic, and her grandfather would be Charlemagne, so is it possible she might convince Michael?)
If we go by all children Constantine IV/Rotrude had, there’s:
Euphrosyne (C)
Irene (C) (became a nun)
Leo (C) (second wife, died in infancy)
Unnamed son (C) (died between 3 and 11)
Louis (R, illegitimate) 800-867 (became an abbot)
If she has Louis (or an equivalent) with Constantine, would he succeed his father on the throne? Assuming he stayed on for life, it would butterfly 7 Emperors: Nikephoros I, Staurakios, Michael I, Leo V, Michael II, Theophilos, and Michael III, extending the Isaurian dynasty 65 years, and butterflying the Nikephorian and Amorian dynasties.
In the case of Louis, what would it look to his contemporaries (and to us in the modern day) that a direct, close descendant of Charlemagne was Byzantine Emperor, especially for 62 years?
Want would it look like if this were repeated about a century later when Zoë Porphyrogenita marries Otto III, HRE, have no children, and live until 1050? Another non-lasting union between the Western and Eastern Roman Empires could certainly change how they’re both view in modernity, especially as they have distinct periods of unification. Bonus points if Zoë’s sister Theodora marries future HRE Henry III in 1028.
Constantine IV/Rotrude 786-804
Louis (or Greek equivalent) 804-867
Zoë/Otto 996-1050
Theodora/Henry 1028-1056
What do 139-141 years of HRE/Byzantine union look like? Especially nowadays? Would it be the same decline but with different names, or could there be further changes, especially if Henry has his heirs from OTL? Not sure how Byzantine succession goes once it’s not father to son, so once Henry’s line dies out, it’s a crapshoot, but including his direct descendants, there’s: Henry IV (1056-1106) and Henry V (1106-1125) which bumps up the HRE/Byzantine Empire union to 208-210 years. Which would change not only the history of both empires, but transform how we view the separation of the Roman Empire as there would then be 2 clear periods in history when they reunited.
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