Medieval Burgundy Becomes a Modern State

MerryPrankster

Faeelin posted this link on Facebook earlier today. It's too long to mega-quote, so here it is:

https://www.adamtooze.com/2017/05/31/medieval-burgundys-abortive-state-building/

Basically the argument was that Burgundy was on the verge of transitioning from a feudal realm to an early-modern state with an infantry-centric gunpowder army, a modern tax system, etc. but Charles the Bold's last war scuppered that.

So what are some PODs that could make Burgundy transition into early modern Europe and what effects might that have?
 
Salvador79

Salvador79

A different heir to Philip the Good. Fewer provocations, different marriage. Good terms with the Swiss and not being inherited by Habsburgs. Then, maybe not-Charles's successor has columbus sail for them?
 

Yanez de Gomera

Very good article, it seems that the breaking point was the failure to secure recognition from the HRE as a Kingdom, maybe someone more diplomtic minded than Charles couod have done it?

That said I am a bit skeptical as to Burgundy's long term prospects: a rich, but disjointed land, surrounded by potential enemies and with very strong local autonomies in the cities.
 
Pentapolim

Pentapolim

It would need to connect it's lands somehow in order to succeed, for military, economic and cultural reasons. The only problem is that it sits right between the HRE and France, which are both walls that are not breached easily.

Actually, I think the best option would be for the burgundian crown to join the HRE. Though it would mean submitting to imperial authority to some point, they would be under the protection of the Habsburgs in case of a war with France. This would mean, however, abandoning hopes of becoming a kingdom, which the burgundian dukes had been trying to for a while.

In any case, given the wealth and development of the burgundian domains, perhaps they could become Emperors themselves.
 

Nitzkrieg

Joining and then internally conquering the HRE is one option. Another other option is to cozy up with the English, but that could be difficult.

I agree that the key moment would have been getting recognition from the HRE, and then using all means possible to keep the HRE and France from ever becoming friendly. This was back in the day where contiguity wasn't so important, I'd say reeling in the cities was paramount. That's a task that needs to be done slowly, and only after you get a really big crown.
 

Noblesse Oblige

Nitzkrieg said:
Joining and then internally conquering the HRE is one option. Another other option is to cozy up with the English, but that could be difficult.

I agree that the key moment would have been getting recognition from the HRE, and then using all means possible to keep the HRE and France from ever becoming friendly. This was back in the day where contiguity wasn't so important, I'd say reeling in the cities was paramount. That's a task that needs to be done slowly, and only after you get a really big crown.
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This might be the likeliest option here, France, especially post HYW, will be looking to centralize power towards the crown. Which means that Burgundy will inevitably butt heads with the Valois, especially if Louis XI is at the helm.

While a different leader would be necessary, (I'd probably recommend Burgundy have a definitive heir and spare from Philippe the Good, which means either Josse or Antoine must live to succeed, assuming Charles still succeeds.) Ultimately, the House of Valois-Burgundy would have to shelve their plans for Kingship and gain support and recognition from the Habsburgs...even then I don't see them holding Burgundian mainland though.
 

High Plains Drifter

MerryPrankster said:
Faeelin posted this link on Facebook earlier today. It's too long to mega-quote, so here it is:

https://www.adamtooze.com/2017/05/31/medieval-burgundys-abortive-state-building/

Basically the argument was that Burgundy was on the verge of transitioning from a feudal realm to an early-modern state with an infantry-centric gunpowder army, a modern tax system, etc. but Charles the Bold's last war scuppered that.

So what are some PODs that could make Burgundy transition into early modern Europe and what effects might that have?
Click to expand...
Interesting read, MP.

Burgundy is in a hard spot stuck between France and HRE, with diverse ethnic populations and non-contiguous lands.

Clearly, Charles the Bold having better luck from the beginning against the Swiss would be important. That might help his contiguous land issues some if he could win the siege in Alsace.

And Charles needs a male heir. Getting one with Maragaret of York presents huge possible butterflies for England as well as for Burgundy.
 

HunterX

Strategos' Risk said:
I haven't read the article yet, but I remember in previous surviving Burgundy discussions, people speculated that culturally it would be pretty much like the Dutch, or some sort of proto-Dutch. And proto-Belgian. Is that accurate?
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The Dukes of Burgundy held their court in Brussels and Flanders was the economic heart of their territories. Even if they can hold onto their French fiefdoms (which is doubtful), the gravity of their realm will be in the Netherlands.
 

Nitzkrieg

It's basically a super-Benelux, with a twist of Alsace and the Rhineland if history is kind. that puts it in a great position for the Industrial Revolution if it survives long enough. So tantalizing!
 
Rheinbund

Rheinbund

Strategos' Risk said:
I haven't read the article yet, but I remember in previous surviving Burgundy discussions, people speculated that culturally it would be pretty much like the Dutch, or some sort of proto-Dutch. And proto-Belgian. Is that accurate?
Click to expand...

i'm not sure, don't forget that Charles le Témeraire imposed french like official language to each state. secondly, Charles wanted Nancy as capital a french speaking area and the Burgundians parliamant was to Moulines and in this area they speak the oil dialect. Also burgundians duke promote more french nobility that flemish burgher. burgundian duke familly have also french royal blood so they surely want kept their french culture to get claim in the future. Also flemish burgher traded enormously with the French kingdom at the time especially for cereal production.

For me a modern Burgundian state to survive will need to be centralized and would be french culturally that could make a sort of German-austrian relasionship with France (even if we could easily see huge difference).
 
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