Yeah, despite his many faults - the man was most certainly not a coward. It could be argued that the situation in the Philippines came undone so quickly due to a combination of factors that it was quite hard to mount a worthwhile defense. It's likely a minor miracle that the Philippines held as long as they did.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Yeah, despite his many faults - the man was most certainly not a coward. It could be argued that the situation in the Philippines came undone so quickly due to a combination of factors that it was quite hard to mount a worthwhile defense. It's likely a minor miracle that the Philippines held as long as they did.
MacArthur was given too much power thanks to his Republican support base -- FDR didn't want him back in the U.S. running for President. Thus, too much of the strategy became irrational; i.e., became focussed on Mac's ego: "I shall return" [to the Philippines]. There could have been more and earlier focus on taking the Central Pacific islands most convenient for bombing Japan and, instead of the Philippines, taking back Burma, getting the road to China open and forcing the Japanese to spend more of their resources on China. (For that, you wouldn't need to fight up the island chain from Timor, merely operate from Ceylon and India.)
Question: How many of the resources from the Dutch East Indies were actually getting through to Japan? Wouldn't it have been better in 1942 through early 1944 to aim at cutting these supplies off at the source rather than preparing the invasion of the Philippines? Or was the U.S. submarine campaign beginning to take care of the DEI problem by early 1944?
Question: How many of the resources from the Dutch East Indies were actually getting through to Japan? Wouldn't it have been better in 1942 through early 1944 to aim at cutting these supplies off at the source rather than preparing the invasion of the Philippines? Or was the U.S. submarine campaign beginning to take care of the DEI problem by early 1944?
Taking back the Philippines was seen by many in the US, beyond Mac, as a moral imperative due to our obligation to them. Thus no matter what there was going to be a push in that direction. Plus retaking the Philippines also cut communications between the DEIs and Japan, the main reason the Japanese felt a overriding need to secure them in the first place (rather than leave them alone). Further still, securing the islands north of New Guinea and around Rabaul cut off that major base and its potential threat to New Guinea and points east and south and thus had to secured in any case. This is why Japan in turn fought tooth and nail to secure and hold them, eventually all but breaking their backs naval and air power-wise doing so.
So yeah, MacArthur is given oversized credit for the direction of the war from '43 on, but the fact is he had alot of strategic logic on his side. I personally loathe the man as a human being, but unlike many I try to not let that get it the way of judging whether or not he made a good call or not on a particular campaign or battle. The Philippines was a good call.
It was a big honking nail into the coffin of the Japanese logistics machine, cutting the industrial base in Japan off from practically all resources from the DEIs and much of SE Asia, as getting anything through China overland from the region then from by ship was a long shot. Yes submarines did this but now holding the Philippines enabled this to be done with far less effort. Just what the Japanese had feared.
The drydocks of Singapore and Java, vital for repairs, so that ships didn't have to sail all the way to Japan, were no also lost, again a huge logistical blow.
Further, any ships, aircraft, troops, and other assets in the region now largely trapped, cut off from resupply and redeployment. That was a huge strategic blow to defending the home islands. It also made those cut off forces that much easier to defeat in detail due to their isolation and lack of support.
Not so pointless now....
And again, you are forgetting that long before the war MacArthur was a FRACKING NATIONAL HERO TO PEOPLE OF BOTH FRACKING PARTIES! Get that through your heads damnit! While yes, FDR had to consider the Republicans in Congress, he even MORE SO had to consider POPULAR FUCKING OPINION when handling the egotistical asshole. When MacArthur made that speech to Congress after getting fired by Truman during the Korean War it was broadcast NATIONALLY for a reason: Because people loved the man, and likely swung the election. The man was seen as a national institution at the time by the bulk of the population of all political stripes. Accept that, despite your distaste of the man, and move on.
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@Nevarinemex
you quoted:
Here is some information:
"
Allied convoy WS.12X departed Halifax with the British troops delivered in convoy CT 5/7th in US transports MOUNT VERNON, LEONARD WOOD, JOSEPH T. DICKMAN, ORIZABA, WEST POINT, and WAKEFIELD escorted by American aircraft carrier RANGER (Flag Rear Admiral Arthur Cook; Harrill), heavy cruisers QUINCY (Battle) and VINCENNES (Riefkohl), and Destroyer Squadron 8 with destroyers WAINWRIGHT and MOFFETT, Destroyer Division 17 with destroyers MCDOUGAL and WINSLOW, and Destroyer Division 16 with destroyers MAYRANT, RHIND, ROWAN, and TRIPPE.
Oiler CIMARRON joined on the 19th at Trinidad.
Aircraft carrier RANGER was detached at 17S, 20W and returned to Trinidad escorted by destroyers TRIPPE and RHIND. Battle on cruiser QUINCY relieved Cook on aircraft carrier RANGER as force commander.
The convoy arrived at Capetown on 9 December. The original destination was Basra, but the convoy was ordered to Singapore, via Bombay.
The US escorts were detached at Capetown.
The convoy sailed on 13 December escorted by heavy cruiser DORSETSHIRE. The US destroyers were employed for a local anti-submarine screen to 14 December and arrived back at Capetown on 15 December.
On 16 December, heavy cruisers QUINCEY and VINCENNES and destroyers MACDOUGLA, MAYRANT, WINSLOW, ROWAN, WAINWRIGHT, and MOFFET departed Capetown for the Caribbean.
On 21 December, light cruiser CERES met the convoy and took liner ORIZABA to Mombasa.
The convoy arrived at Bombay on 27 December.
Liner MOUNT VERNON was detached to meet light cruiser COLOMBO on 23 December, but the rendezvous was not kept. The liner proceeded to Mombasa to join convoy DM.1."
here's more information:
you quoted:
that information is wrong: Task Force 14 were made up of part of the Atlantic Fleet which was escorting yeah a convoy WS-12X that was carrying the British 18th ID which was 20,000 soldiers. Task Force 14 consisted of Carrier USS Ranger, Heavy Cruisers Quincy and Vincennes and 8 American Destroyers. Rear Admiral Arthur B. Cook was in command but was relived on November 19, 1941 to Captain Charlton Eugene Battle in command of USS Quincy which Cook took USS Ranger and two destroyers back to Trinidad while the rest went to Capetown.
Here is some information:
"
Allied convoy WS.12X departed Halifax with the British troops delivered in convoy CT 5/7th in US transports MOUNT VERNON, LEONARD WOOD, JOSEPH T. DICKMAN, ORIZABA, WEST POINT, and WAKEFIELD escorted by American aircraft carrier RANGER (Flag Rear Admiral Arthur Cook; Harrill), heavy cruisers QUINCY (Battle) and VINCENNES (Riefkohl), and Destroyer Squadron 8 with destroyers WAINWRIGHT and MOFFETT, Destroyer Division 17 with destroyers MCDOUGAL and WINSLOW, and Destroyer Division 16 with destroyers MAYRANT, RHIND, ROWAN, and TRIPPE.
Oiler CIMARRON joined on the 19th at Trinidad.
Aircraft carrier RANGER was detached at 17S, 20W and returned to Trinidad escorted by destroyers TRIPPE and RHIND. Battle on cruiser QUINCY relieved Cook on aircraft carrier RANGER as force commander.
The convoy arrived at Capetown on 9 December. The original destination was Basra, but the convoy was ordered to Singapore, via Bombay.
The US escorts were detached at Capetown.
The convoy sailed on 13 December escorted by heavy cruiser DORSETSHIRE. The US destroyers were employed for a local anti-submarine screen to 14 December and arrived back at Capetown on 15 December.
On 16 December, heavy cruisers QUINCEY and VINCENNES and destroyers MACDOUGLA, MAYRANT, WINSLOW, ROWAN, WAINWRIGHT, and MOFFET departed Capetown for the Caribbean.
On 21 December, light cruiser CERES met the convoy and took liner ORIZABA to Mombasa.
The convoy arrived at Bombay on 27 December.
Liner MOUNT VERNON was detached to meet light cruiser COLOMBO on 23 December, but the rendezvous was not kept. The liner proceeded to Mombasa to join convoy DM.1."
here's more information:
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Oh dear, Cryhavoc101, you really are on the ball with this one, and left me with some explaining to do!
Major Willian Martin was the name given to the body of Glyndwr Michael, which had been dressed up as a Royal Marine, and with attached fake plans, cast adrift off a British submarine, HMS Seraph, close to the Spanish coast in 1943, as a deception operation, to disguise the 1943 Allied invasion of Sicily.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Martin_(Royal_Marines_officer)
and https://biography.wales/article/s8-MICH-GLY-1909
Major Martin was however, also a serving officer, in the Indian Ocean, He was chosen because he had served on HMS Hermes, which was sunk in April 1942, had enough seniority to be carrying plans, and was currently working in the USA, see
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...g=PT66&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=norrie&f=false
OK, with me so far?
I created the fictious 12th Naval Wing because I found myself with quite a number of FAA squadrons, but no real command umbrella to put them under. And of course, being the guy who loves detail, I had to name a commander for it. I wanted one who would be flying with them, not a base commander. Major William Hynd Norrie Martin, RM, was commander of FAA 814 come December 1941, which is part of my Naval Wing, and with little further research I chose him, figuring I could wing it (pun intended) with a Major (equivalent to Squadron Leader) commanding a Wing, arguing (in my head) that it was newly formed, and may later see a more senior figure take command as it grew in its training role.
See https://www.unithistories.com/officers/RN_officersM2.html, and scroll down to Martin, William
Unfortunately, my poor research not only gave me a commander too junior for the role, but one with historical connections I would have avoided if I had noticed that. Well, whats done is done, and I’ll soldier on, as will Maj Martin, who you will be meeting in further posts.
But this does give me a chance to raise a question I’ve had in my head for quite a long time. The use of Historical people in a What If. Obviously, you can’t avoid using Adolf Hitler, Winston Churchill, General MacArthur et al, but what of the minor players, how deep can you go before your in danger of bad taste or worse offending some family relative. Writing of them earning a VC, without deviating from the historical truth is fine, but changing date, location, action, does that work Ok?
So why use them, why not just go with fictious characters, which I have done already, which would be much safer. Well, it doesn’t add colour to the story in my mind, historical people help bring the past back to life, and it’s a chance to weave their own personal stories into the fabric of my What If. I’d love your thoughts on this, and any advice and guidance that can let me continue to use them, but not offend, or worse be banned from the forum.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Oh, by the way, I won't be killing off General MacArthur early, clearly too many people love him! 
I guess we're going to have to start an Amusing Ways to Kill MacArther thread (as they seem to be popular at the moment) to sate our desires instead!
How about on his trusty charger during The Bonus March leading a charge on female rioters? Knocked out of the saddle by a rock thrown by a 6 year old boy.
So long as you're making changes because your story has changed the history of the war, I can't see any problem with that. Private John Davies, A Company, 1st South Lancs (my granddad, just to use him as an example) was at D-Day because that's where 1st South Lancs happened to be in real life. If your story changes history and the 1st South Lancs are now posted to the Far East or North Africa or wherever then Pte Davies and his mates will be marching into Rome or holding a line in the jungle somewhere in Malaya or whatever else you come up with for his battalion. Provided you don't suddenly turn someone's relative into a murderer or a rapist or something (assuming they weren't one in real life) then I don't see a reason for anyone to be offended by the change.
Well you do not have to actually kill him, just wound him sufficiently so that he is no longer relevant. The extreme end is where his brain injury renders him a drooling idiot that requires help to be fed. He still might be useful to sell war bonds though.Oh, by the way, I won't be killing off General MacArthur early, clearly too many people love him!
How about a have Super Mac suffer a bit of a mental brake. The sort involving 2 pencils and an underpants hat. The only thing better than an amusing death would be a deranged American General to popular and well connected to sack!
Not wanting the derail the thread I was thinking about the effects of Barbarossa on what equipment and men can be spared for the Far East?
OTL with the battles in North Africa in full swing, the need to send support to the Russians and build up the forces in the UK there was very little to spare. ITTL has that really changed? Arguably the extra material and manpower already sent to Malaya above OTL means that the urgency to do something has receeded a little. The unknown is if the higher quality command team in Malaya have a bit more influence in London. This could allow some of the material used for Home Forses to be sent to Malaya instead. Certainly Barborossa reduces the chances of a Sea Mammel in 1941 to virtually zero and as Coxy has so expertly shown a little goes a long way in Malaya due to them having sweet FA OTL.
OTL with the battles in North Africa in full swing, the need to send support to the Russians and build up the forces in the UK there was very little to spare. ITTL has that really changed? Arguably the extra material and manpower already sent to Malaya above OTL means that the urgency to do something has receeded a little. The unknown is if the higher quality command team in Malaya have a bit more influence in London. This could allow some of the material used for Home Forses to be sent to Malaya instead. Certainly Barborossa reduces the chances of a Sea Mammel in 1941 to virtually zero and as Coxy has so expertly shown a little goes a long way in Malaya due to them having sweet FA OTL.
My apologies I thought it was high humour of some sort
I think that asking you to try and use semi historical figures is a level of cruelty I cannot ascend too
I mean having AB Cunningham as big boss of a given TF is one thing but you could quiet easily use a known pilot and have him doing something else or even allude to him
In short what you have done is absolutely fine by me and either and/or approach works
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Your quite right Derwent Water, but anything extra that goes to Malaya has a cost implication elsewhere. We are seeing more aircraft, radar units, staff officers coming from the UK, as well as raw materials from the Dominions. There shouldn't be a major effect on other theatres at the moment, so no historical changes but this incremental nibbling away will tell somewhere eventually. In addition, these reinforcements to Malaya are costing more in shipping, which also means stuff doesn't get delivered elsewhere. At some stage it will have a clear effect on another theatre, probably the Middle East.
The other thing I'm struggling with is the changes at the strategic level, if say Malaya, Sumatra and Java are still held in March 1942. Despite the sign up to Germany First, the attritional struggle with the Japanese is going to twist that somewhat in my opinion. Losing Malaya and the DEI so quickly meant Britain, and the USA was spared the agony of making difficult choices with regards to deployment of military assets and the the subsequent supplies they drew on.
However, that's a long way off, and we might not get to that, stopping the initial Japanese onslaught will be challenging.
Kind of like the character, General, that Harry Morgan played in M.A.S.H. ? That is where he is singing and dancing around trying to get the helicopter pilot to join him. It was some kind of working song from the South.
MWI 41062816 The Malays March By
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Saturday 28 June;
After the heat of the day, it was welcomingly cool in ‘Drumochter Lodge’, the big government bungalow, built on the grounds of the training ground in Port Dickson. Lt Gen Arthur Percival, commanding officer of Malaya Command, stepped into the lounge, removing his cap and unbuttoning the top two buttons of his tunic. “I think Freddie Young’s made quite a good job of it all, the last company marching by was a bit shoddy I thought, but all in all a decent turnout from the 2nd Battalion, Malay Regt, don’t you think Kenneth”
His Chief of Staff, Brigadier Kenneth Torrance, was already over by the sideboard, making a couple of drinks, “Tolerable, Arthur, I did notice that about the rear company, but they were the last to form, and their young company commander looked very nervous, but all in all, a good show, ice and a slice with your gin and tonic?”
“Yes please, plenty of ice, of course, the real work starts now, they will need lots of company and battalion training, what’s the plan going forward”.
“Well Arthur, we’re planning on moving them to Singapore and begin taking over some of the responsibilities of the 1st battalion. They’ll only be fit for garrison work for a while, they should be able to continue company training there, battalion training would have to come later in the year. The other problem Young has, as does James André with the 1st Malay Battalion, is the constant bleeding of officers and NCOs, and the rapid promotions that causes. It was bad enough for Andre giving up over a third of his battalions trained men to form this second battalion, but now the decision to continue recruiting, and raise further companies of Infantry, will exasperate the situation”.
“Yes, I know Kenneth, it will be the same for the Singapore and Hong Kong Chinese Regts too, but the future infantry companies raised will, in the main, be deployed in rear area security and local defence roles. They can be based in the big towns, and have part time, ex volunteer officers and nco’s attached, who will train weekends and be called to the colours in times of peril.
Ideally, I’d want Young’s battalion to be able to take over from the 1st battalion in three months’ time, I have promised Andre a more active role for his battalion. It’s not a perfect situation, but I believe, as does Lord Gort, that it is a workable one. You, my dear boy Kenneth, only have to make it happen by giving them everything they ask that we can give. Mmm, Kenneth, that’s a nice G&T if I do say so myself!”
After the heat of the day, it was welcomingly cool in ‘Drumochter Lodge’, the big government bungalow, built on the grounds of the training ground in Port Dickson. Lt Gen Arthur Percival, commanding officer of Malaya Command, stepped into the lounge, removing his cap and unbuttoning the top two buttons of his tunic. “I think Freddie Young’s made quite a good job of it all, the last company marching by was a bit shoddy I thought, but all in all a decent turnout from the 2nd Battalion, Malay Regt, don’t you think Kenneth”
His Chief of Staff, Brigadier Kenneth Torrance, was already over by the sideboard, making a couple of drinks, “Tolerable, Arthur, I did notice that about the rear company, but they were the last to form, and their young company commander looked very nervous, but all in all, a good show, ice and a slice with your gin and tonic?”
“Yes please, plenty of ice, of course, the real work starts now, they will need lots of company and battalion training, what’s the plan going forward”.
“Well Arthur, we’re planning on moving them to Singapore and begin taking over some of the responsibilities of the 1st battalion. They’ll only be fit for garrison work for a while, they should be able to continue company training there, battalion training would have to come later in the year. The other problem Young has, as does James André with the 1st Malay Battalion, is the constant bleeding of officers and NCOs, and the rapid promotions that causes. It was bad enough for Andre giving up over a third of his battalions trained men to form this second battalion, but now the decision to continue recruiting, and raise further companies of Infantry, will exasperate the situation”.
“Yes, I know Kenneth, it will be the same for the Singapore and Hong Kong Chinese Regts too, but the future infantry companies raised will, in the main, be deployed in rear area security and local defence roles. They can be based in the big towns, and have part time, ex volunteer officers and nco’s attached, who will train weekends and be called to the colours in times of peril.
Ideally, I’d want Young’s battalion to be able to take over from the 1st battalion in three months’ time, I have promised Andre a more active role for his battalion. It’s not a perfect situation, but I believe, as does Lord Gort, that it is a workable one. You, my dear boy Kenneth, only have to make it happen by giving them everything they ask that we can give. Mmm, Kenneth, that’s a nice G&T if I do say so myself!”
MacArthur has too good a press following he is a "Hero" to the folks at home, and politically it is better he is far away from the continental U.S. Our best hope is that Hart can be cut lose from MacArthur's restrictions.
Hart's biggest need is a a division of cruisers with full up AAA, and at least 1 with radar, Squadron of modern(1935> ) destroyers and additional fleet train, 2 Oilers, an Ammunition ship, a Repair ship, and a general cargo ship ( unavailable due to shortages until late 1942 early 1943). Maybe a division of destroyers, at best but that would still need another Destroyer tender( not available ). Also additional marines and weaponry to convert the Subic Bay Marine Barracks Battalion into a Defense Battalion with AAA and coastal guns (Defend Marivales Base), and lastly withdraw the China based 4th Marines and American civilians in July of 1941 and for USMC to resume sending replacements to the 4th Marines .
A bonus if cut away from Mac Arthur would Hart be able to talk a division of Destroyer Minelayers out of CincPac, which could help at Lingayan and give Hart, additional AAA capable escorts.
Hart's biggest need is a a division of cruisers with full up AAA, and at least 1 with radar, Squadron of modern(1935> ) destroyers and additional fleet train, 2 Oilers, an Ammunition ship, a Repair ship, and a general cargo ship ( unavailable due to shortages until late 1942 early 1943). Maybe a division of destroyers, at best but that would still need another Destroyer tender( not available ). Also additional marines and weaponry to convert the Subic Bay Marine Barracks Battalion into a Defense Battalion with AAA and coastal guns (Defend Marivales Base), and lastly withdraw the China based 4th Marines and American civilians in July of 1941 and for USMC to resume sending replacements to the 4th Marines .
A bonus if cut away from Mac Arthur would Hart be able to talk a division of Destroyer Minelayers out of CincPac, which could help at Lingayan and give Hart, additional AAA capable escorts.
Been done several times before. Look at any AH that involves Mac..