Perhaps Rheinmetall during the late 20s focuses more on the 20x138 (Solothurn ST-5) round than on the 20x105 that lead to the MG204, eventually creating in 1936-38 an airworthy 2 cm Flak 30/38? (A better MG C/30L?)
Luftwaffe "sanity options 2.0", 1935-43
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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Perhaps although IMHO linear action guns were ultimately somewhat of a dead end for air to air use (although IMHO the Soviets seemed to be able squeeze more performance out of them than the west did, perhaps post ww2 the west felt revolver cannon and Gatling guns (and perhaps air to air rockets and missiles) made further efforts with linear action guns for air use less important ?)
Edit to add maybe the Luftwaffe could have looked into Gatling style cannon pre ww2 ? (maybe for center line mounting in twin enginge fighters ?) With hindsight I am surprised this wasn't pursued by the US and others pre ww2 ?
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'Center of gravity', not 'enter of gravity'?
Ammo for the motor cannons was located pretty much over the center of gravity anyway; the 109 carried ammo for the motor-cannon MG 151s in the wing, for example.
The captured Shkas and Shvak guns should've been a good starting point to the Germans. While not the revolver cannon per se, they employed 'pipeline' system where the next cartridges were removed from the belt during the firing of preceding cartridges, and so 'prepared' went into the barrel an instant later. The LMG went to 1800 rd/min in service, an amazing RoF that it took rotary weapons to beat.
(amazing, if unreliable Ultra Shkas went to 3000 rd/min)
Germans were probably aware of the Shkas by time the I-16 were captured or downed during the SCW.
The C/30L was tested aboard one He 112 (V6?) in SCW.
Already as-is, with it's 100-rd drum, it would've been a great weapon on the earlier Fw 187s (2-3-4, depending on horsepower available), and with 900 m/s, hit probablility would've been excellent.
This book tells a lot about the failure of the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe's problems were not just needing better aircraft or tactics.
Its problems were also organisational and it was asked to fight on too many fronts without enough resources built up prewar.
The Luftwaffe's problems were not just needing better aircraft or tactics.
Its problems were also organisational and it was asked to fight on too many fronts without enough resources built up prewar.
I don’t disagree but IOTL the Germans did manage to get the MG81z into service (I’ve seen differing rate of fire spec’s, but 3,000 rpm or perhaps more for the twin version seems reasonable ?). But I do agree that at least studying the Soviet guns (if they didn’t do so IOTL )? would seem to make sense.
Yes, you are right wrt. the MG81 having the very high RoF, 1600 for the single, and 3200 for the Z (2-barrel installation), at least per the German-language Wikipedia.
Random captured guns, and what LW can use better than in OTL.
A lot of HS 404 cannons was captured in France, as well as the factory making them; Germans even made a manual for the 404. These can be shipped to Italy or other countries that are friendly and lacked a modern 20mm cannon. For German use, a big 150-160 rd magazine might've been interesting (mag is noted here); shortcoming is that such a move introduces yet another cartridge in the logistical chain. The 404 might be worthy of necking it out to 23mm (maybe?), for a 200+- gram shell.
The 25mm ATG is badly obsolete as a ground-based AT gun, but it might be worthy that Germans make an automatic airborne cannon where that gun is a part donor. Useful both for air fighting (talk ~250 g mine shell), and also as an flying AT gun (instead the MK 101/103). Germans captured thousands of the 25mm ATGs. If that project is working, LW does not need the MK 103 nor the MK 108.
Germans can try to combine the French 25mm (barrel) and Soviet VYa 23mm to make what is basically a VYa-25.
Straight out copying the UB HMG gets the Germans a HMG much more capable than the MG 131; might even work as necked-out to 15mm. Similar thing with the Belgian 13.2mm Brownings, that were making past 1000 rd/min.
Polish (and other countries' production) 40mm Bofors - Heer should try and get any of these for their use in case they don't get a workable 37mm that LW has no dibs.
A lot of HS 404 cannons was captured in France, as well as the factory making them; Germans even made a manual for the 404. These can be shipped to Italy or other countries that are friendly and lacked a modern 20mm cannon. For German use, a big 150-160 rd magazine might've been interesting (mag is noted here); shortcoming is that such a move introduces yet another cartridge in the logistical chain. The 404 might be worthy of necking it out to 23mm (maybe?), for a 200+- gram shell.
The 25mm ATG is badly obsolete as a ground-based AT gun, but it might be worthy that Germans make an automatic airborne cannon where that gun is a part donor. Useful both for air fighting (talk ~250 g mine shell), and also as an flying AT gun (instead the MK 101/103). Germans captured thousands of the 25mm ATGs. If that project is working, LW does not need the MK 103 nor the MK 108.
Germans can try to combine the French 25mm (barrel) and Soviet VYa 23mm to make what is basically a VYa-25.
Straight out copying the UB HMG gets the Germans a HMG much more capable than the MG 131; might even work as necked-out to 15mm. Similar thing with the Belgian 13.2mm Brownings, that were making past 1000 rd/min.
Polish (and other countries' production) 40mm Bofors - Heer should try and get any of these for their use in case they don't get a workable 37mm that LW has no dibs.
The Mauser MK213 in 30mm was such a weapon and was almost ready by the war's end. IIRC at least one Ta 152 was slated to test it. A rate of fire at 1,300 RPM?
It formed the basis of various guns post war, the British ADEN being one.
The French 25mm AT gun was single shot with manual reload which wouldn't be good for aerial use. I suspect that the effort needed to automate it would be better spent elsewhere.
The Luftwaffe infantry units might have appreciated a light AT gun, but otherwise it looks like a dead end for the Luftwaffe.
I seem to recall reading that the French 25mm AT gun used tungsten cored projectiles. Depending on how much ammo was captured maybe the tungsten cores could be used for other ammunition or perhaps a new 25 mm gun more suited for airborne Anti Armor use could be devised to fire them (either just the projectiles mated to a new cartridge, or the existing cartridges ?)
Or perhaps just use the AT guns as AT guns until the ammo runs out ?
There is probably no good RoI if the automatization is attempted.
Much better to use just the barrels - French took about 6000 of these, even decrease by perhaps 1000 due to destruction, hiding, wear and tear still leaves a lot of material to speed up the start of the development and production of the more powerful airborne cannons than it is the MG 151/20, or even the MK 108 while being less of a brute than the MK 103 was.
Germans will also have the 25mm bore barrel-making equipment under their control for later guns.
Could be used as a heavy sniper? Granted, a few hundred probably will be enough for them?
Hmm. If the projectile could fit into the 25mm AA gun you might be onto something. Then again, the AA mount was big and bulky which isn't good in an aircraft.
But there's also the 25mm used in the Panhard and one or two other armoured vehicles that might be worth looking at as a possible tank killer cannon for the Stuka or 110.
I think you're right that the 25mm AT is best used as light AT.
The Boys made a useful sniper /anti-material rifle at least on some occasions, and there are reports of 2 pounders being used in the desert to drive off mortar teams.
And yes, reusing the barrels makes good sense.
Perhaps a better use of the captured aero engines, and/or the tooling for these:
Bristol Mercury was made in Poland, it might've been a good engine for the Hs 129, or for the Ju 52s, or some other transport. It will probably be easier on the manhour cost than the 14M.
G&R radials were widely used by the LW, but they didn't put any emphasis on the best of the lot - the 14R. It would've probably been better for them to make one 14R for each pair of 14M not made, the former being a good fit for the Fw 190, Ju 87 and 88. The 14N was used on transports, it might've been a good fit on the fighter-bomber Fw 187s or Bf 109s, or perhaps on the Ju 87s.
At any rate, I'd be toning down the production of the small 14M and concentrate on the bigger 14N and 14R.
HS 12Y - it would've been a good fit on the He 100, and maybe on the Bf 109F? With the 'free' Vee between the cylinders, that engine would've allowed for an easier fit of bigger guns. But perhaps the best is to send as much of HS tooling to Italy, so they make easier the switch towards the V12 engine themselves?
A few details from captured engines, like the swirl throttle as used on the Mikulin's engines (an elegant way to circumvent the lack of high-oct fuel, so having that copied and employed on German engines would've add another 100-150 HP down low - don't wait until late 1943 to do it). Device with similar good properties was used on last HS12Ys in France, so that is also worth looking at and copying.
Bristol Mercury was made in Poland, it might've been a good engine for the Hs 129, or for the Ju 52s, or some other transport. It will probably be easier on the manhour cost than the 14M.
G&R radials were widely used by the LW, but they didn't put any emphasis on the best of the lot - the 14R. It would've probably been better for them to make one 14R for each pair of 14M not made, the former being a good fit for the Fw 190, Ju 87 and 88. The 14N was used on transports, it might've been a good fit on the fighter-bomber Fw 187s or Bf 109s, or perhaps on the Ju 87s.
At any rate, I'd be toning down the production of the small 14M and concentrate on the bigger 14N and 14R.
HS 12Y - it would've been a good fit on the He 100, and maybe on the Bf 109F? With the 'free' Vee between the cylinders, that engine would've allowed for an easier fit of bigger guns. But perhaps the best is to send as much of HS tooling to Italy, so they make easier the switch towards the V12 engine themselves?
A few details from captured engines, like the swirl throttle as used on the Mikulin's engines (an elegant way to circumvent the lack of high-oct fuel, so having that copied and employed on German engines would've add another 100-150 HP down low - don't wait until late 1943 to do it). Device with similar good properties was used on last HS12Ys in France, so that is also worth looking at and copying.
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I like that book a lot, learned a lot from it. It's actually one of the sources I cited in my timeline - https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...rflies-of-dunkirk.516253/page-3#post-24310101
It's about 30 years since I read that book and IIRC he spent several pages discussing the Luftwaffe's non-combat losses and concluded by saying that they didn't start a flight safety programme at all or that it was implemented too late to help. Is that correct?
It's been a few years since I read it myself. (I'm a very slow writer; I've been picking away at the same timeline idea since before I even joined the ah.com). Mostly, I remember that he covered a whole lot of their deficencies in planning and organization. So it was a great source for finding little things that they might plausibly do better, if they had better leadership.
I don't recall that detail in particular, but a quick search in the text turned up this:
www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-Luftwaffe/AAF-Luftwaffe-5.html
Fwiw, when I was trying to figure out how to make this timeline work, when I got to the part where I needed the Luftwaffe to do a little bit better than OTL and was trying to figure out how, I landed on a POD in 1936: Wever doesn't die, but Erich Raeder does.
Making the early 2-seat trainer versions of the aircraft that are not already controllable by 2 people would've been a boon to the Luftwaffe, saving them a lot of aircraft and pilots/crewmen. Includes the Bf 109 (often stated as the most dangerous for low-time piloots) and Fw 190 as minimum; the 2nd prototype of each should be a 2-seater already.
It is honestly baffling how long it took for something like that to happen OTL. Though given that the Luftwaffe Chief of Staff was betting everything on a short war and mobilized the training staff for front duties...