Industrial Progress: A Story Of Venetian Suffrage (Haitus)

[Tuna-Fish]

The whole thing.

Partitioned Egypt doesn't really make sense. The entire country depends on a single trade route. Whoever controls that gets to tax the rest of the country, even without boots on the ground. Any state that holds on to the Upper Egypt is not viable, and needs to attack north until there is only one winner.

 

[generalurist]

How is the muslim population of Egypt treated under Venetian rule?
Also, did Timur's forces reach the Nile delta or did they just pillage the Levant?

 

[Lucius Verus]

How is the muslim population of Egypt treated under Venetian rule?
Also, did Timur's forces reach the Nile delta or did they just pillage the Levant?

They pillaged the Levant just as IOTL then turned north-west to deal with the Ottomans with the help of a navy. Just as IOTL, the Mamluks did a fine job of pillaging the Nile valley themselves.

 

[Kirook]

So Egypt is under Christian rule again for the first time in centuries. Interesting. I wonder if this will embolden any would-be crusaders to use it as a base to try their luck in the Levant again?

(Then again, they might be a little wary of doing that given what happened the last time the Venetians were involved in a crusade...)

 

[The Undead Martyr]

At this point, a redux of the Fourt Crusade would be a mercy kill, and Venice would probably stick around and keep the city (and... it's not like they could do worse than the Latins or Angeloi).

 

[BootOnFace]

A Christian Egypt is huge. If the Venetians try to work with the Copts instead of converting them, they have a good chance of making Egypt the main possession of Venice, even above the Po Valley. Egypt requires naval supremacy to hold and Venice won't have to worry about naval supremacy for a long time. The organization of Venetian Egypt and the nature of their rule there will be one of the most fascinating aspects of this TL. I can see Egypt rising a lot sooner now that the pillaging Mamluks are out. Remember that OTL they weren't entirely removed from power until Napoleon invaded.

 

[Kirook]

Wait, speaking of the Levant, what exactly happens to it now? It was controlled by the Mamluks, but they don't have the Egyptian powerbase required to hold it anymore.

 

[Sceonn]

Wait, speaking of the Levant, what exactly happens to it now? It was controlled by the Mamluks, but they don't have the Egyptian powerbase required to hold it anymore.

Probably under some remnant faction of the former Timurid Empire.

 

[foresterab]

Took two days to read this but thank you for a well written tale of a time I know nothing about

 

[Alf]

Really nice.
I'd love to nitpick here and there on the construction of Venetian names and words (I'm from what you call terra firma), but really this is so good it's not even remotely important.

MOAR PLS.

 

[Lucius Verus]

Probably under some remnant faction of the former Timurid Empire.

IOTL and ITTL the Timurids negotiated a peace with the Mamluks, after sacking and depopulating the Levant. Due to the autonomous nature of Mamluk households there's an uncomfortable rump Amir of Syria that looms just over the desert.

A Christian Egypt is huge. If the Venetians try to work with the Copts instead of converting them, they have a good chance of making Egypt the main possession of Venice, even above the Po Valley. Egypt requires naval supremacy to hold and Venice won't have to worry about naval supremacy for a long time. The organization of Venetian Egypt and the nature of their rule there will be one of the most fascinating aspects of this TL. I can see Egypt rising a lot sooner now that the pillaging Mamluks are out. Remember that OTL they weren't entirely removed from power until Napoleon invaded.

They do as all rulers of the Nile have to watch for invaders from the east, the hard part is trying to figure out the exact proportion of Arabs, recently-converted, crypto-Copts, Copts, Domari, Lebanese, along with the slither of all the other ethnicities. Official statistics are scarce/non-existent with Mamluk historiography being of little interest in the way of the focus on antiquity and Egyptian nationalism.

So Egypt is under Christian rule again for the first time in centuries. Interesting. I wonder if this will embolden any would-be crusaders to use it as a base to try their luck in the Levant again?

(Then again, they might be a little wary of doing that given what happened the last time the Venetians were involved in a crusade...)

There is a strong lobby for that and nothing stops individual captains from trying, Venice has more or less depleted the military-build up of the 1380s-1390s and is currently stretched thin, more on that later.

 

[BootOnFace]

Invaders from the east can be easily defeated as long as you can make crossing the Sinai hell or the army invading isn't insanely huge. Considering the devastation wrought in the Levant and Mesopotamia(and if historical rule happens there, it won't get much better,) the only real threat to Egypt is the Turks and if Sinai is properly fortified and Venice maintains naval supremacy then an invading Ottoman army would be half dead by the time they reach the Nile. Of course, Venice may possibly lack enough of an army to properly defend Sinai and use naval landings to disrupt the invader's supply lines. If Venice is involved heavily in Hungary or Italy, it could quite easily be forced to leave poor Egypt to its own devices. But my main point is that Egypt is one of the most defensible chunks of land in the Mediterranean basin and its status as the most Christian of any Muslim-ruled area outside of Lebanon bodes well for Christian rulership.

 

[htgriffin]

But my main point is that Egypt is one of the most defensible chunks of land in the Mediterranean basin and its status as the most Christian of any Muslim-ruled area outside of Lebanon bodes well for Christian rulership

This presumes the Christian rulers manage to get or keep the Christian populace on their side. Venice seems less stupid about such than many from Latin Europe, but it is not a given.

 

[BootOnFace]

That is absolutely true. Many countries have treated heretics worse than those of other religions. Venice would not be able to seem more legitimate to Muslims than a Caliph or Muslim sultan, so it should focus on gaining the loyalty of the Copts and the Greeks. But the problem is that even if the current Venetian government is pro-Copt, that could change at any point and that would permanently weaken the Venetian hold on Egypt.

 

[Kirook]

That is absolutely true. Many countries have treated heretics worse than those of other religions. Venice would not be able to seem more legitimate to Muslims than a Caliph or Muslim sultan, so it should focus on gaining the loyalty of the Copts and the Greeks. But the problem is that even if the current Venetian government is pro-Copt, that could change at any point and that would permanently weaken the Venetian hold on Egypt.

Well, consider this: “Industrial Progress” is a Venice-wank TL, but it’s also a “Venetian suffrage” TL. And we’re already seeing the republic start to liberalize bit by bit. The Copts’ safety isn’t guaranteed, but it’s much more secure than it would have been under, say, the Genoese.

 

[BootOnFace]

That's a very good point. But I would also point out it says "Venetian Suffrage" not "Universal Suffrage." OTL, as many states progressed into modernity, they became less tolerant of religious minorities and ethnic minorities. A liberal country like France oppressed the Bretons and their language after hundreds of years of peaceful coexistence.

 

[Lucius Verus]

That's a very good point. But I would also point out it says "Venetian Suffrage" not "Universal Suffrage." OTL, as many states progressed into modernity, they became less tolerant of religious minorities and ethnic minorities. A liberal country like France oppressed the Bretons and their language after hundreds of years of peaceful coexistence.

Hit the nail on the head there, the changes have really only been applied to the minority that is Venetian within the Republic and the vast bulk of the rest is still toiling along in rural villages. Inertia and the size of the non-Venetian population will guarantee that the current tiered citizenship/residency system will last for a long time.

 

[Blorg]

can we get a map of Venice's land at this point?

 

[Daedalus]

can we get a map of Venice's land at this point?

Irene did mention that there was a map in the works, but it got halted at some point...

I'd be fine with a simple comparison with OTL Venice of what they have vs what they don't yet.

 

[Lucius Verus]

Hopefully most of the icons are self-evident.

See link for full-sized map of commercial resources.
https://ibb.co/npkzJU