Say either fascist Italy remains neutral or Nazis win in Europe. How does racism does look like with a major power or superpower supporter. In the case of the latter, removal of a Superpower that called for racial equality. I assume that racism in the west would more legitimized. I’m going to say that in the case of an axis victory that the international incentives for desegregation would far weaker given both powers’ racism.
Impact on Racism with a surviving fascist Italy or Nazi Germany
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TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
Much of that depends on who rules Germany after Hitler's death, since Mussolini's rule wouldn't fundamentally change the west's view on racism.
Goering's reign would probably make casual racism more commonplace in the west and would weaken the movement for desegregation in America. Goering's public persona and his overall demeanor would weaken the influence of the numerous KKK groups, and instead inspire southern politicians to take more 'civil' approaches towards pacifying the Civil Rights movement, with plenty of aid from J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI. Southerners might even make state-owned internment camps for 'unruly' African Americans in order to keep them away from the public light and to reestablish order with white supremacy. This will no doubt cause an uproar in the North, but the federal government will likely have little incentive to intervene, for their intervention against well-disciplined Southerners could cause bloody race riots from angry Southerners, or could even lead to a second civil war if it gets ugly enough. Case in point, a Goering win would likely set desegregation by several decades.
Himmler's reign would rightfully be condemned by the vast majority of American politicians, including in the South. But there would be a sizable minority of Americans that would emphasize with Himmler specifically, for his background as a chicken farmer and his headmaster demeanor. A handful of Southern businessmen, as well as a few Klan leaders, would want to replicate Germany's successful 'exclusion' of European Jews not only to cement white supremacy in the South, but to enrich their pockets as well. And while Himmler was certainly no friend of Christianity, he wouldn't waste the opportunity to destabilize America and reduce it's threat to the Reich. But he would have plenty of conditions in exchange for his funding: they had to expand their targets beyond just African Americans (such as Catholics, immigrants and especially the Jews), they had to become a well-disciplined unit of multiple vigilante groups (they could lynch whoever they wanted, but they had to keep property damage to a minimum) and they couldn't provoke or engage with Southern, nor federal, authorities (for that would've killed this plot in its infancy). The result would be a far bloodier Civil Rights era, with these vigilantes killing protesters and causing widespread bloodshed on national television. And Southern governments would be very reluctant to intervene, but the federal government would be increasingly pressured by their western allies to rectify the situation. Himmler would personally order the early assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., so that America would be engulfed in race riots. These vigilantes would eventually be detained and desegregation would probably still happen around the same time as OTL, but America would suffer considerably more trauma as a result of Himmler's meddling. And he no doubt would use this to legitimize his reign over Germany.
But Goebbels' reign would very likely accelerate desegregation. His venomous and volatile rhetoric would paint Germany as an unapologetic dystopia, and Goebbels would viciously point out America's own racial turmoil if they ever spoke out against him. Even the most racist Americans would've been horrified by Goebbels' openly anti-Semitic beliefs and of the widespread violence that he would've committed against his own people. Few Americans would've been able to stomach enforcing such measures against African Americans, nor would they want to ever be compared to the irredeemably vile regime of the dwarfish firebrand. Southern governments, albeit reluctantly, would've heavily reduced the Jim Crow laws so that enforcement wouldn't be as rigid. And the federal government would've introduced stronger civil rights bills earlier than OTL. But this doesn't mean that the racism and resentment from white Southerners will have gone away. There would still be bitter feelings towards African Americans and even occasionally violent. But desegregation as a whole would've ended early if Goebbels succeeded Hitler.
Very little would've changed had Speer, Hess or Bormann taken over. Just had to mention that.
Goering's reign would probably make casual racism more commonplace in the west and would weaken the movement for desegregation in America. Goering's public persona and his overall demeanor would weaken the influence of the numerous KKK groups, and instead inspire southern politicians to take more 'civil' approaches towards pacifying the Civil Rights movement, with plenty of aid from J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI. Southerners might even make state-owned internment camps for 'unruly' African Americans in order to keep them away from the public light and to reestablish order with white supremacy. This will no doubt cause an uproar in the North, but the federal government will likely have little incentive to intervene, for their intervention against well-disciplined Southerners could cause bloody race riots from angry Southerners, or could even lead to a second civil war if it gets ugly enough. Case in point, a Goering win would likely set desegregation by several decades.
Himmler's reign would rightfully be condemned by the vast majority of American politicians, including in the South. But there would be a sizable minority of Americans that would emphasize with Himmler specifically, for his background as a chicken farmer and his headmaster demeanor. A handful of Southern businessmen, as well as a few Klan leaders, would want to replicate Germany's successful 'exclusion' of European Jews not only to cement white supremacy in the South, but to enrich their pockets as well. And while Himmler was certainly no friend of Christianity, he wouldn't waste the opportunity to destabilize America and reduce it's threat to the Reich. But he would have plenty of conditions in exchange for his funding: they had to expand their targets beyond just African Americans (such as Catholics, immigrants and especially the Jews), they had to become a well-disciplined unit of multiple vigilante groups (they could lynch whoever they wanted, but they had to keep property damage to a minimum) and they couldn't provoke or engage with Southern, nor federal, authorities (for that would've killed this plot in its infancy). The result would be a far bloodier Civil Rights era, with these vigilantes killing protesters and causing widespread bloodshed on national television. And Southern governments would be very reluctant to intervene, but the federal government would be increasingly pressured by their western allies to rectify the situation. Himmler would personally order the early assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., so that America would be engulfed in race riots. These vigilantes would eventually be detained and desegregation would probably still happen around the same time as OTL, but America would suffer considerably more trauma as a result of Himmler's meddling. And he no doubt would use this to legitimize his reign over Germany.
But Goebbels' reign would very likely accelerate desegregation. His venomous and volatile rhetoric would paint Germany as an unapologetic dystopia, and Goebbels would viciously point out America's own racial turmoil if they ever spoke out against him. Even the most racist Americans would've been horrified by Goebbels' openly anti-Semitic beliefs and of the widespread violence that he would've committed against his own people. Few Americans would've been able to stomach enforcing such measures against African Americans, nor would they want to ever be compared to the irredeemably vile regime of the dwarfish firebrand. Southern governments, albeit reluctantly, would've heavily reduced the Jim Crow laws so that enforcement wouldn't be as rigid. And the federal government would've introduced stronger civil rights bills earlier than OTL. But this doesn't mean that the racism and resentment from white Southerners will have gone away. There would still be bitter feelings towards African Americans and even occasionally violent. But desegregation as a whole would've ended early if Goebbels succeeded Hitler.
Very little would've changed had Speer, Hess or Bormann taken over. Just had to mention that.
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Not necessarily. If the West saw a surviving Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy as an adversary, racism might get the same reputation socialism got in OTL.
kham_coc
Banned
Italy doesn't matter that much but the 'Absence' of the holocaust (by absence I of course mean the absence of all of the glaring evidence) would certainly have an impact - But there are horrible states today doing horrible things, and being ignored more or less, and in some cases amplified for political effect - If Germany is the West's Bete noir either replacing Socialism, or in addition to Socialism depending on what happens to the USSR - Worst case though is where (somehow, magic faery dust, it's the USSR that invades Poland, Germany 'protects' Poland taking back 1914 and leaving 'independent' central Poland to the Poles but no nazi-soviet war) the USSR/Socialism remains the central Bogyman and Nazi Germany is seen as the important bulwark and an uncomfortable ally to the US then oh there would be a lot of whataboutery and blind ignorance.
Socialism is viewed as a threat to the economic and social order of the US. Same doesn't apply to Racism if anything you might see earlier Putin situation with the US Right.
interesting that Goering ascension would be the worst result for America
TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
That's because the Goering ascension would be the least violent and tumultuous of the potential Nazi regimes, even though he was still an evil and committed Nazi bastard.
The racist politicians from the segregationist South would've loved to take inspiration from the father of the Gestapo, and deal with the Civil Rights protesters without resorting to excessive violence. Mind you, the federal American government interned Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor, even though they held no loyalty to Imperial Japan. So the precedent was already set there, so (if Goering succeeded Hitler) the Southern state governments could've been inspired to deal with the Civil Rights movement, by detaining protesters indefinitely, with their own internment camps, no matter how morally reprehensible it may be. The key would be to get the 'unruly' African Americans off the street and away from the cameras, so that the slimy Southerners could sweep the Civil Rights issue under the rug.
There is a reason why the Civil Rights movement failed to spark change in Albany, Georgia. And chief among them was police chief Laurie Pritchett, who prioritized using nonviolent and humane methods in arresting the protesters. By not resorting to brutality to beat down the Civil Rights movement, there was no incentive for change. I think this matches what Goering wanted the public to think of him as, though he would be far more brutal to the opposition in private. The American public would be already aware of Himmler being a sinister monster, and it would be impossible for them to ignore Goebbels' vile rhetoric. But at least Goering would be seen as 'respectable' in comparison and someone who the American public could theoretically reason with. And the Southerners likely would've been inspired to use his methods to keep the Civil Rights movement from brewing and to keep Jim Crow as law of the land in the American South.
Art Vandelay
Banned
If Germany won WWII, it seems likely to me that there would be some sort of Brown Scare (which would be much less founded in reality than the Red Scare). Given how much the American right has been subject to some level of Brown Scare by ostensibly neutral cultural institutions for the past 80 years (where any idea that's even tangentially related to something the Nazis would've agreed with is anathematized), one can imagine how much more left-wing the US would be in a Nazi victory scenario, where the rhetorical cudgel of "Nazi" applies to an actual hostile power in the real world, not just phantoms in the fevered minds of the left-wing. Armed with much more powerful rhetorical weaponry, I believe it likely that the left-wing would be even more successful, and the right-wing even more hapless, than has been the case in otl for generations.
Addressing at last the OP, "racism" would be a much more prevalent cudgel against the right-wing, and therefore much more "common" (since "racism" has been manufactured by the press as the demand on the left-wing for White racism to fight has far outstripped the supply of White racism to be fought), but actual pro-White racism would be less than otl, and actual anti-White racism greater, since any opposition to anti-White programs would be smeared as "racist", "fascist", "Nazi" to an even greater extent than in otl (not that they aren't already in otl, but such accusations would be more damaging in atl due to association with an actual hostile power instead of the delusional brains of communists, as I said)
Addressing at last the OP, "racism" would be a much more prevalent cudgel against the right-wing, and therefore much more "common" (since "racism" has been manufactured by the press as the demand on the left-wing for White racism to fight has far outstripped the supply of White racism to be fought), but actual pro-White racism would be less than otl, and actual anti-White racism greater, since any opposition to anti-White programs would be smeared as "racist", "fascist", "Nazi" to an even greater extent than in otl (not that they aren't already in otl, but such accusations would be more damaging in atl due to association with an actual hostile power instead of the delusional brains of communists, as I said)
Racism would do much better, in OTL USA had to deal with its trouble at home because USSR was explicit anti-racist and anti-colonial (even if they weren’t necessary that anti-racist and anti-colonial at home), simply to sell its model abroad. The Nazi’s explicit pro-racist and pro-colonial agenda means that USA doesn’t have the same need. More so a significant part of USA’s population will see the conflict with Germany as meaningless and a sign of (((them))) being in charge of Washington. USA will be much worse place in a Nazi victory timeline, not a better one.
Part of the reason the US went rightward was to heighten the contrast with an existential, ideological enemy to the Left. Given an existential, ideological enemy to the Right instead, it seems to me that there would be movement leftward instead.
Certainly in a Kalterkrieg with Germany (especially without Communism as a threat, which would likely be the case), people would be searching for Nazis under the bed rather than Communists. Most likely, Joe McCarthy would have jumped on that bandwagon instead.
Certainly in a Kalterkrieg with Germany (especially without Communism as a threat, which would likely be the case), people would be searching for Nazis under the bed rather than Communists. Most likely, Joe McCarthy would have jumped on that bandwagon instead.
I don't see how brown scare would work? People being too nationalist and pro-business ?
Art Vandelay
Banned
Too nationalist, isolationist, anti-communist, racist, antisemitic, "racist", "antisemitic", martial, vaguely pro-German (eventually pro-White). Keep in mind that any Brown Scare would much less rooted in reality than the Red Scare of otl, as there were in fact plenty of communist agents in America and, at least to my knowledge, few if any Nazi agents, so they likely wouldn't succeed in purging any actual Nazis, just weaponizing manufactured panic against normal rightists (like leftists claim happened to them in the otl Red Scare).
Let’s put it this way: Godwin’s Law is a problem in OTL, where Nazi Germany was decisively defeated and conquered almost 100 years ago. If Nazi Germany had been the enemy in the Cold War this would have been worse.
I’d expect a surviving Fascist Italy to violently resist attempts at Libya and East Africa to gain independence. Much like Portugal, but potentially more radical, you could even see poison gas and chemical weapons being used.
If Jim Crow remains, would there be a carrot of attempting to make separate schools equal?, support for groups like the Peace Ethopians, or The Nation of Islam? With the repression would seem to also be offered some sort of Faustain bargain.
TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
I mean, Brown v. Board of Education would still happen so school segregation would still be made illegal. But that doesn't mean that the Southern state governments will have any incentive to enforce it, as was the case OTL. In fact, they'd be even less inclined to give concessions to African Americans because they would simply put them in 'protective custody' if they caused too much of a fuss. The only viable option that African Americans would have to escape the repression would be to migrate to the North, where there wouldn't any sort of internment camps. The only way the system ends with either the fall of Nazi Germany or when most of the white Southerners start protesting the camps.
And I doubt that the Nation of Islam would desire to do much action against them other than empty rhetoric. The NOI primarily operated in the North and Elijah Muhammad was too much of a cowardly, but pragmatic, egomaniac to actually do anything other than cite it as further proof of the 'white devil'. Instead, I think he would capitalize on the potential mass migration to recruit new members in the NOI. Now Malcolm X would've absolutely tried to do something about it, but the moment that he would step a foot onto a Southern state, he'd be detained and then interned indefinitely in a state camp. And Elijah Muhammad wouldn't have done anything to save him.
There was a Brown Scare/fifth-column scare during OTL WW2, culminating in the 1944 sedition trial.
Sedition Trial of 1944 | CSUN University Library Digital Collection
Sedition Trial of 1944 On January 3, 1944 thirty opponents of American involvement in the war against Germany went to trial for charges of violating the Smit Act of 1940. The charges stemmed from their involvement in fascist movements and from cooperation with German forces. The defendants...
kucslics
Banned
I am not sure about it.
If the USA doesn't go to war with Germany (which is very likely if Germany wins), then more conservatives would point to some of Nazi Germany's policies as example. If the USA also avoids war with Japan, then it won't experience an economic boon and the New Deal won't become entrenched either.
It's also interesting to look at another scenario, where USA becomes insanely reactionary: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...te-house-an-alternate-cold-war.521438/reader/ - in this story a Jewish Communist spy becomes President in 1945, serves Soviet interests and when it's revealed it causes intense right-wing backlash with the right getting the rhetorical weaponry the left had OTL. This story is a bit of an exaggeration, but I believe that if Henry Wallace became President after Roosevelt's death and his Soviet-friendly politics resulted in a catastrophe, then the reactionary and traditionalist right would be much stronger.
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kucslics
Banned
I think separate schools were already on the path of being equal in terms of spending by the 1960s.