If France avoids revolution, what would be the next European country to have one?

The French Revolution is widely seen as the first modern proper revolution in that it was the first sizable country to both overthrow its government and seek to completely reinvent the entire social structure of the place. And it's widely perceived as "breaking the dam" in a way that inspired countries across multiple continents to overthrow their governments in the 1830s and 1840s, to varying level of success.

But if France avoids revolution (let's say by never restoring the parlements and taxing its way out of fiscal crisis), where would be next to go? I'm thinking you need both a place exposed to Enlightenment thinking and a big urban center with most of the population being poor, therefore the potential for a radical urban working class. It seems to me rural peasants tend to be harder to form into a mob and tend to be more conservative anyway.

Thoughts?
 
But if France avoids revolution (let's say by never restoring the parlements and taxing its way out of fiscal crisis), where would be next to go? I'm thinking you need both a place exposed to Enlightenment thinking and a big urban center with most of the population being poor, therefore the potential for a radical urban working class. It seems to me rural peasants tend to be harder to form into a mob and tend to be more conservative anyway.
The French revolution was not realy a revolt of the poor against the aristocracy. It was more a revolt of the wealthy non nobility against the aristocracy. Basicly the urban upper and upper-middle class. The wealthy merchants, artisans, etc. They were an important driving force in France, but had no political power. They wanted that power and this is what caused the French Revolution, I believe.

You need a country with a similar situation as France. And powerful enough for it to actualy matter.
 
The French revolution was not realy a revolt of the poor against the aristocracy. It was more a revolt of the wealthy non nobility against the aristocracy. Basicly the urban upper and upper-middle class. The wealthy merchants, artisans, etc. They were an important driving force in France, but had no political power. They wanted that power and this is what caused the French Revolution, I believe.

You need a country with a similar situation as France. And powerful enough for it to actualy matter.
Indeed.
 
And it's widely perceived as "breaking the dam" in a way that inspired countries
Well it did a lot more than inspire those countries, it invaded them. It's easier to accept the liberal critique of your government when your government has been thrashed. And when the people tasked with national salvation think the way forward is reform on the English model if not the French, both because it will make the state more effective and more popular (and delivered on both to some extent). Really the enemies of the Revolution played a very big part in promoting its ideas and making it seem like "progress", which is good because the Revolution could be considered its own worst enemy most of the time

But if France avoids revolution (let's say by never restoring the parlements and taxing its way out of fiscal crisis)
Sure. But taxation was what the whole thing was about, taxation and debt and unaccountable spending with no oversight. And the burden falling in an uneven way across the population-- walls built around Paris not for protection, but to make sure no one dodges the tolls. Of course the wall doesn't go around Versailles. Just Paris. Taxing your way out, Paris knows what that means. So even if it didn't have a Revolution in this scenario, Paris probably had a big riot. Maybe other riots in other cities. Might have produced a wave of radical emigres who seek refuge in Britain or Switzerland or something.

If a Revolution happens in another country it would probably be over the exact same issue, because it's a hard one to solve while maintaining the traditional expectations of who pays for what, how much, and why.

Although, another country might not have the problem of suspending its Estates' assembly for decades, and then making a big show of reopening with the Cahiers de doleances.

I'm thinking you need both a place exposed to Enlightenment thinking and a big urban center with most of the population being poor, therefore the potential for a radical urban working class. It seems to me rural peasants tend to be harder to form into a mob and tend to be more conservative anyway.
The institutions of police and military command and supply are in the cities. A disturbance within the city itself can more easily paralyze that and stop it from acting. This is what happened in Paris-- the police lost control, then Lafayette intervened with the National Guard, which was supposed to be nicer and more compromising while still protecting order and property. Then the Guard's new recruits generally turned out to be... well, the same people they were supposed to be suppressing, because they're just all sharing the same city-- breathing the same air, reading the same pamphlets.

Peasants have a taller order, they have to come into the cities from without, and the forces of order can maintain cohesion-- letting their professionalism carry the day, even if they are outnumbered. Plus peasants live in a less interconnected world, they don't live in six floor apartment buildings, distances are greater. So rather than a "counter revolution" the Directory got something even worse-- banditry, omnipresent violence and counterviolence, so much that no matter how many its police arrested, no matter how much of a mockery it made out of its amnesties and promises not to bring back the Terror, it simply couldn't win without signing over the whole of the state to Napoleon and similar personalities. The Directory was not defeated exactly, but "the peasants" (no less confused a group than urban dissidents-- there were people who felt like land privatization didn’t benefit them enough, former victims of the Terror and continuing Directory anticlericalism, active royalists as well as mostly apolitical people who just had a grudge) denied it victory. Then Napoleon stuck himself with the same problem out in Spain, except now the guerrillas had British help, and even if they didn't the government was not institutionally capable of achieving the mission set for it.

But other than all that, sure. We want a country that 1) spends beyond its means, probably on a massive army 2) could offend a big city's population by doing that 3) could then lose control of its own instruments of coercion.

It's probably the Austrian Netherlands, the Dutch Republic, or Prussia. IIRC the Dutch were having another spin on the cycle of "Stadtholder or not" violence around the 1790s but Prussia stopped it by invading them, and then France exploited the result over several phases of occupation. The Austrian Netherlands might do what the Seven Provinces did against Spain.

But Prussia, there's a possibility. Their country is at constant risk of dismemberment, and Elizabeth of Russia nearly delivered on that. So they have their big army. But, their territory east of the Elbe is very rural, a lot of low value exports of raw materials to England-- so there's not much to tax, not that it will stop Berlin from trying. And I think Berlin had a toll wall as well, plus the increasingly ambitious character of Enlightenment thought there in Kant's time (spurred on by a sense of intellectual rivalry with Saxony). If there were to be a Revolution, barricades in Berlin and Konigsberg, and it was threatened with invasion from all of Prussia's neighbors, that might actually be enough to ensure that most of Prussia's state and army don't defect. The army is specifically tasked with preventing Prussia's dismemberment, and Austria will at least ask for Silesia back. Meanwhile many of the bureaucrats of the OTL Prussian reform might become Revolutionary wunderkinder-- not necessarily ideologues, but the kind of competent managers any big organization needs to get things done. It would be a very odd situation, Prussia might even lose-- confronting Austria and Russia at once would be very difficult, probably impossible without a Polish revolt or some other disturbance. France might drag its feet though-- instead of actually sending a big force to invade Prussia, they might make a more token contribution and think of ways to turn all this into a loss for Britain somehow. Maybe the revolutionary Prussian flag looks like one of these-- one of them is black-red-white, almost the Wilhelmine flag.

An Austrian revolution would be pretty wild. It's not as crazy as it sounds either-- this is long before the Czech and Hungarian national awakenings, the German or Germanophone element is a lot stronger in both countries and might function like the French speakers of Occitania and Brittany in conducting the Revolution outside of Vienna. The threat of dismemberment could also compel the old government's institutions to stay loyal and carry out the extensive reorganizations (probably a lot of centralization at first) of the new government(s)-- although the Hungarian estates would probably respond less willingly to this sort of thing than common/Archducal institutions like the army. Maybe the Austrians run into some financial problem while pursuing HRE reform and find, like France, that rethinking their financial structure turns out to mean rethinking their social structure.

Russia or Spain? Well, Madrid's not a very big city. St. Petersburg is much more successful. Maybe Spain's colonies try to organize a more autonomous government, things spiral out of control, and the resulting war bankrupts Spain (again) and transmits republicanism. As for Russia... it seems like the Romanovs were doing pretty good in the late 1700s/early 1800s. They might not have even relied on debt as much to finance their wars, which they generally won.

The French revolution was not realy a revolt of the poor against the aristocracy. It was more a revolt of the wealthy non nobility against the aristocracy. Basicly the urban upper and upper-middle class. The wealthy merchants, artisans, etc. They were an important driving force in France, but had no political power. They wanted that power and this is what caused the French Revolution, I believe.
That's very true, Robespierre was a small town lawyer, not an urban working class guy. The deputies of the various assemblies were of a similar profession and status. Taxation might have been their big issue, but by that point many of them sincerely believed that they were called on to do more than just troubleshooting. They believed in a government of "virtue", like the old Roman Republic. A very middle class way of thinking, both in their conception of virtue (hard work and business and merit good, laziness and corruption and privilege bad) and in their pining for an ideal of good government most familiar to them from a Latin-and-Greek education. The real American and Dutch Republics were just the beginning of what they considered possible-- a truly moral order, ruling by the will of the people (because obviously they'll all want the same thing, or else split in very predictable ways. 9 out of 10 philosophers agree).

But if the monarchy and its supporters were able to maintain exclusive command over the most heavily armed people in the city, Robespierre would have just carried on being the fairly idealistic person he was before Year II.

The Revolution happened, and then went through additional phases, because that command failed over and over again-- it first needed to be shared ad-hoc with pro-reform figures like Lafayette, and was then lost entirely to people radicalized specifically by the experience of living for over two years in a lawless city with no sign of positive change. So to produce a similar event, someone needs to riot, and it can't just be the lawyers.
 
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Ireland or England
Ireland very possibly, though my understanding of 1798 is that it was heavily inspired by France, and only ever had a remote chance of success because of French intervention. Also, without the French revolution I'd suspect reformers like Castlereagh continue upon that path, rather than suppression.

Britain I think almost certainly not. One of the great advantages of the British constitution is its adaptability. Reform was quite a popular idea in Britain until the revolution turned everybody off the idea for a generation.
 
The French revolution was not realy a revolt of the poor against the aristocracy. It was more a revolt of the wealthy non nobility against the aristocracy. Basicly the urban upper and upper-middle class. The wealthy merchants, artisans, etc. They were an important driving force in France, but had no political power. They wanted that power and this is what caused the French Revolution, I believe.

You need a country with a similar situation as France. And powerful enough for it to actualy matter.
Would Holland or Poland be brave enough to try (again)?
 
Most revolutions occur during times of famine or economic unrest. It is no coincidence that most of the peasant revolts tended to coincide with periods of bad harvests.
 
Ireland or England
I'm not convinced either of those work. In Ireland, any attempted revolution would quickly become a nationalist independence struggle. And the bulk of people on the nationalist side are going to be rural, conservative Catholics who would want to enact a state with a similar ideological outlook closer to the later Irish Free State. In England, incomes are growing and the equivalent to the wealthier professionals that kicked off the French Revolution have access into the political class. Also, the poor in England aren't close to famine, as in France.
 
The French revolution was not realy a revolt of the poor against the aristocracy. It was more a revolt of the wealthy non nobility against the aristocracy. Basicly the urban upper and upper-middle class. The wealthy merchants, artisans, etc. They were an important driving force in France, but had no political power. They wanted that power and this is what caused the French Revolution, I believe.

You need a country with a similar situation as France. And powerful enough for it to actualy matter.
It was both. The initial beginnings of the revolution was the wealthy non-nobility against the aristocracy, agreed. But several times during the revolution (the storming of the Bastille, the march on Versailles, the October Days) were clearly driven by angry mobs on the street: the san culottes and poissardes. It was those incidents that kept on radicalizing the revolution.
 
In England, incomes are growing and the equivalent to the wealthier professionals that kicked off the French Revolution have access into the political class. Also, the poor in England aren't close to famine, as in France.
Yet, England still got a Days of May scare IOTL - with a ruler like Louis XVI or Louis Phillippe, it could have gone a lot further.
 
It seems that their intervention into the American War of Independence cost France as much as the Seven Years War.

Meanwhile it's very possible for Austria to stick its own hand into a blender-- between 1775 and 1785 it had two war scares, the Bavarian Succession and the Kettle War, which involved a bit of maneuvering but were mostly settled with negotiations and payouts (in money and small amounts of land). But even the maneuvering could be very expensive, and after Bavaria Joseph spent his reign trying to push through tax reforms... and also trying to make German the official language of Hungary, supposedly also for efficiency's sake. The Kettle War going hot (Joseph REALLY wanting the Scheldt opened to shipping, and not caring about the emerging Dutch post-Golden-Age economic inferiority complex) is more interesting for me personally-- it would involve Austrian troops tramping through the Northern and Southern Netherlands, both lousy with republican and revolutionary ideas, which might be voiced by the Austrians' enemies or even their local allies. The Patriot and Orangist militias will start on the same side but may eventually fight each other as much as the enemy. And they'd be destabilizing all the German states they go a-maneuvering through. And Joseph would be making more and more demands of all his realms-- yes, even Hungary.
Yes, this would be a revolution of conservatives against the reforms. Also bound to fail unless it gets major support from abroad and not exportable.
How would the Southern Netherlanders respond to such a war? Surely conservatives want the Scheldt opened as well.

Anyways, Prussia didn't intervene on the Dutch side and France successfully mediated the conflict, it all ended in a treaty and indemnity with the Scheldt still closed-- if mediation becomes totally impossible I wonder what they'd do. If France has already intervened in America, they can't afford another war. And Prussia could manufacture something but Austria may be able to deploy other allies within the HRE to forestall that-- if Prussia threatens to intervene Austria might promise something to Saxony about Poland. They could just sit back, deliver aid to the Dutch, and ramp up the propaganda war against Austria-- which may involve republishing radical Dutch and American ideas.

Even if Austria wins they'll be broke, with an exhausted army-- but, Joseph's centralizations will create a political pendulum effect in favor of decentralization, to reduce the mutual obligations of the Habsburg realms, their responsibility for each other's wars. However, this risks making the realm incapable of fulfilling its ambitions or defending itself against increasingly threatening competition. That's why Joseph had to be such a "revolutionary" in the first place, he was trying to make his empire more than just an alliance of convenience against Ottomans and Protestants. Successive conventions of the Austrian and Hungarian estates (a slightly different problem than the French-- rather than convening the Estates for the first time in a long time, you've convening them regularly and still not breaking the gridlock) might produce a freewheeling assembly, which could take advantage of a disturbance in Vienna, Pressburg, or Buda. Leopold seems like he could still get things under control but he died very young, and so Francis might run into... health problems if his cooperation is judged insufficient by criteria he can't control, possibly leading to a kingless government bent on Josephine centralization (but promising "citizenship" as compensation-- look at all these rights you could have! all you have to do is learn German, pay taxes, get drafted into the army...) against several peasant and urban revolts. At this point it just comes down to whether a critical mass of officers and bureaucrats consider extreme decentralization and possibly dissolution of the realm preferable to a republican reconstitution of it. They know how much war costs now, and if a republic at least makes people more willing to pay (charms them into contributing, or into staffing the strengthened institutions that force contributions)... well, that's the same sentiment that produced wartime liberal reforms in Prussia, even if Prussia's kings spent the subsequent period trying to downplay the implications of that.

It could get even worse if that government goes anticlerical. A Prussian revolution might go anticlerical but it would be a very forced development, neither Lutherans nor Calvinists are really loyal to anyone outside the state's borders-- although one or both might be placed under heavy surveillance if they become associated with secret royalist conspiracies and similar sentiments. Meanwhile a revolutionary government in a Catholic country is immediately confronted with the fact that with the king's authority gone, their next rival is the pope. Especially in a place like Hungary-- this is on paper a separate kingdom, a separate nation, its only link with Austria is a shared king and shared religion. It could lead to pogroms against Hungarian Jews, who might be portrayed as allies of the godless republicans for 1) speaking German 2) potentially being the beneficiaries of secular policies. These attacks could turn the Jews and Hungarian Germans into passive supporters of the republic in the end-- someone has to offer them security. Meanwhile the Austrians may have shared more of the Pope/Church-skeptic tendencies within Catholicism like Jansenism and the Jesuit tradition, which might have also played a part in French revolutionary attitudes.

Either a Prussian or Austrian revolution is interesting because it could overflow those borders and become a German one, as the revolutionary state and its main rival make increasing claims on the smaller states around them, using the new political language but potentially also the old one of the HRE. The result may not only be a German republic, but a second wind for the Holy Roman Empire-- they may both exist at the same time before one takes the other out.

I'd also be interested in how an Austrian republic as described above would eventually tackle the national question. Maybe they could borrow from the United States and turn into a free and "totally voluntary" Union of Republics, in which German speakers (by ancestry or by convenience) still hold outsized influence in the Bohemian and Hungarian units.
 
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I'm not convinced either of those work. In Ireland, any attempted revolution would quickly become a nationalist independence struggle. And the bulk of people on the nationalist side are going to be rural, conservative Catholics who would want to enact a state with a similar ideological outlook closer to the later Irish Free State. In England, incomes are growing and the equivalent to the wealthier professionals that kicked off the French Revolution have access into the political class. Also, the poor in England aren't close to famine, as in France.
The 1798 revolution was led by the society of united Irish men and was a mixture of Presbyterians in ulster and Catholic, Anglicans in the rest of the country.
 
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Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
I'd also be interested in how an Austrian republic as described above would eventually tackle the national question. Maybe they could borrow from the United States and turn into a free and "totally voluntary" Union of Republics, in which German speakers (by ancestry or by convenience) still hold outsized influence in the Bohemian and Hungarian units.
At an early stage would ethnic demography in the modern sense even make sense to create states out of? You have broad clusters of German, Hungarian, MBCS and Vlach speakers and historical kingdoms identified with the same but still
 
At an early stage would ethnic demography in the modern sense even make sense to create states out of? You have broad clusters of German, Hungarian, MBCS and Vlach speakers and historical kingdoms identified with the same but still
Well that's the thing, those historical kingdoms aren't just formalities-- that's probably what Joseph II wanted but that's where people disagreed with him. A defense of the laws and liberties of the Hungarian kingdom (whether you think of them as a static inheritance from St. Stephen or as an evolving tradition, just one evolving in parallel with the Austrian one and not to be superseded by it), and the rights of the many corporate groups within it with respect to each other and to their foreign king, that's something people can mobilize over. You don't have to be Magyar to defend "Hungary" as a legally and politically autonomous concept. It's not ethnic but people are still willing to stand up for it against Austrian monarchical and potentially republican centralism. My argument for actually pushing it to a revolutionary situation mostly involves giving Austria a much worse financial situation, so Joseph can't afford to just give in and make concessions-- and after he dies his supporters need to figure out how to move forward without him, potentially without any monarch at all. Not that Joseph's successors should be stereotyped as totally opposed to what Joseph wanted-- it's just that "the republicans' Joseph" might become a rhetorical foil, a bar intentionally placed out of their reach.

But it's the kind of language suited for argument according to the rules that be, its an appeal to authority that precedes any individual monarch-- so as conditions get more insecure, now the arguments aren't unfolding in the assemblies but in the street, or in the bandit-ruled backcountry. And then you could get ethnic mobilization growing out of the previous mode of negotiation, but its not an inevitable result.

I think the republic would prefer to think of itself as a simultaneous revolutionary event across the Bohemian, Austrian, and Hungarian traditions-- which has inaugurated a new republican chapter in each of these separate traditions, and the result just happens to be very similar in all three and involve some form of indissoluble union. Extend this to other legal entities within the realm like Croatia, then scratch head over how to address the Serbian military marches, southern Poland, and Lombardy (and Tuscany). An Italian sister republic will inevitably fight with allies of the French (Bourbon Naples and the Pope), a Polish sister republic wouldn't be easily tolerated by the Russians, and Prussia is already an enemy in the German context. Add British hostility and, well, survival will get very difficult. Any peace will likely only be temporary, and not even last that long.
 
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The POD specified is too late for this, but I've rotated an idea in my head about how between the free Frisians and the peasant republic of Dithmarschen, northwestern Germany might be a potential nexus for a republican revolutionary/proto-Communism movement.
 
Spain was headed toward a civil war which could have easily turned into an ideological struggle. The State was bankrupt, the dynasty was played out, and the wealth of the Spanish New World had been played out, and nationalist revolts were about to start. Not a very sable situation. That these events did play out but in the context of the Napoleonic Wars covers up the fact that all these issues were in play anyway.
 
Yet, England still got a Days of May scare IOTL - with a ruler like Louis XVI or Louis Phillippe, it could have gone a lot further.
England could definitely have a revolution, but it would be like the American Revolution or the Glorious Revolution or the Dutch Revolt: change at the top and a bit more suffrage. Not the radical remaking of society we saw in the French or Russian revolutions. There are too many people with a stake in the system to want to tear everything down.
 
Spain was headed toward a civil war which could have easily turned into an ideological struggle. The State was bankrupt, the dynasty was played out, and the wealth of the Spanish New World had been played out, and nationalist revolts were about to start. Not a very sable situation. That these events did play out but in the context of the Napoleonic Wars covers up the fact that all these issues were in play anyway.
I am not familiar enough with Spanish history pre-Napoleon. Could you elaborate on heading toward civil war? The thing that seems different about Spain is, like Ireland, it has small cities and most of the population is rural and devout. I actually wonder whether Naples has the most similarities with Paris. I know they were ultraconservative post-1789 in OTL, but I think a big part of that was nativism against French interference. I wonder if the city could have its own San culottes.
 
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