How Do We Prevent The Worst Of England's Actions With Scotland, Ireland, and Wales?

[JanWellem]

The problem is that the English inherited the less than stellar relations with their northern neighbours and the Emerald Isle from the Romano-Brotons, who had employed their Anglo-Saxon ancestors to stop Pictish raids into what became Northumbria and the Irish raids on the western coasts, Saint Patrick himself was a Romano-Briton, who fell victim to an Irish slave raid, was sold into slavery and, by a quirk of fate, ended up christianising Ireland.

 

[The Professor]

This thread seems to be tossing around the ‘downtrodden angelic Celts vs the evil demonic English narrative’ and the ‘sly, conniving Celts vs the absent mindedly benevolent English narrative’’. Both are obviously bollocks.

To be fair while both are bollocks I've not really seen the latter sentiment in this thread.

 

[Dr Dee]

To be fair while both are bollocks I've not really seen the latter sentiment in this thread.

Fair enough, maybe I’m reading too much into it 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I was thinking the latest you could do this with Ireland was by having serious relief given to the Irish in the 1840s Potato famine. As @GeorgeUK bought up in a DBWI of mine, have it maybe be the first recorded use of the military in a successful famine relief.

 

[Sardar]

Maybe Edward Bruce succeeds in claiming Ireland's crown? But that is ruled out by the OP, so oh well.

Or maybe just have Ireland be converted to the Anglican Church early on. I've seen it said on this site about Ireland turning protestant that the Tudors could've turned the Irish clergy (and as a result, most of the country) mostly Anglican if they were just a bit more accommodating to Irish sentiments. Though I'm not sure how true that is. However, if that is the case, then you could have a thoroughly Anglican (probably the Church is called something different ITTL) British Isles with the entire area being united around the person of the British Monarch.

 

[An Thuong]

You could go the French route and forcefully assimilate all the minorities to the extent that they join 'Team Nasty'.
Being serious though, perhaps the Anglican Communion becomes something like a 'Western Orthodoxy' with autocephalous, vernacular Scottish, Welsh and Irish churches (and Manx, Jerrais, Caledonian Gaelic, Cornish and Norn for good measure). The geography of IoNA makes total assimilation difficult, so maybe a sort of 'fractal assimilation' allowing for some autonomy could have done the trick? That said Scotland will already be ardently Calvinist and unless you prevent Cromwell's rampage, Ireland will be firmly (and understandably) wary of all things English for centuries.

 

[Lions21]

for scotland? no union of the crowns

How would that make relations between the english and scots better? An independant Scotland just means the two countries are going to be rivals.

 

[Lions21]

Much of the anti English narrative of modern day Scotland and Wales is pretty recent in origin really, I'd say if anything its more to do with the general trend of devolution and seperatism across Western Europe rather than a uniquely British isles phenomenon.

I'd say a good PoD would be butterflying the flight of the earls and the wars of the three kingdoms away, I'd say these events marred Anglo-Irish relations more than anything, a surviving native irish nobility would have hugely positive benefits for Ireland's position within the United Kingdom.

 

[Lions21]

You could go the French route

You lost me there my friend.

 

[Dr Dee]

You lost me there my friend.

I guess he means the extreme centralisation/enforcement of cultural conformity in the French state as opposed to the rather dopey centralisation efforts and casual bigotry of the Anglo-British state?

 

[david31]

It wasn't appalling at all. If you look at the Anglo-Scottish wars, they were pretty well all caused by the Scots, and - like the Irish attacks - usually occurred when England was either engaged in a life-and-death struggle with a more powerful opponent, or having a civil war. When the Scots stayed at home, the border was peaceful, but sooner or later greed got the better of them and/or they succumbed to French blandishments and began raiding.

As a North Country Englishman I have an ancestral awareness that Scottish expressions of national virility have traditionally involved burning our huts!

At a railway station where I live there is a beautiful map of the old pre-Breeching rail network in the north made out of ceramic tiles showing not only many obscure and long gone lines but also castles and battlefields. Battles like those of the Standard near Northallerton, Neville's Cross near Durham and my favourite Flodden field where the English 2nd XI well and truly stuffed the Scots 1st XI.

My view of Scottish history doesn't have Braveheart goggles. For most of its history Scotland was a predatory neighbour seeking to push its borders south after gobbling up the old Northumbrian fiefs between the Forth and the Tweed. And always ready to make mischief if the southern gentry had their attention elsewhere.

 

[Lions21]

I guess he means the extreme centralisation/enforcement of cultural conformity in the French state as opposed to the rather dopey centralisation efforts and casual bigotry of the Anglo-British state?

No as in just copying anything the french do.

 

[Incasaurus]

The english naturally have a pretty nasty reputation, and of course it all started in Ireland and Scotland (and wales but i think they got to them a bit later). Despite this they historically would often try to say Britain is a nation of equals. Your goal is to make this true- at least in the isles. how they treat the overseas territory isn't the topic here. No highland clearances or ulster plantaions, the potato famine is genuine incompetence not probably malice, etc.
Rules

1. POD after the start of the hundred years war
2. England has to go protestant; the others are optional
3. they must remain a monarchy

I have a real issue with this thread and it’s premise , “the English naturally have a pretty nasty reputation”. Firstly how are we defining ,”nasty”? Our concepts of morality in the 21st century will be utterly different to those of the medieval period but more importantly , can anyone name a European polity that hasn’t acted, “nastily”. You know we are not watching some Hollywood morality tale here that conveniently decides to have the English as the bad guys because the English accent does sound so absurdly like a pseudo, super villain. Just to put my comments in context I’m a Peruvian national of Scottish heritage so there is no bias here.
It’s all too convenient to forget that Irish tribes invaded Wales , subjugated and enslaved the natives before they established the kingdom of Dyfed , all very convenient to forget the way King James of Scotland (before he became King of England) went on a most cruel and devastating crusade against women during the so called Scottish witch trials. I could go on, but the term nastiness is such a misguided term.

 

[A Scarecrow]

It's been pointed out already but the Scots have a history of raiding across the border, the Romans literally built a wall (two walls actually) to try to keep them out (well okay... the Scots came much later but whatever) and this habit of theirs didn't stop when the Romans left. A lot of the more horrible actions done by the English would have been various Northern Lords getting revenge - as far as they would have been concerned the Scots had it coming. And the rest of the English lords would have rememered all of the times that Scotland decided to side with the French.

To not have various acts of reprisal due to violent history and eye-for-an-eye actions then you basically have to completely change the history of the British Isles. And it's a universal change on all sides that is needed. Because no one was innocent back then.

Maybe if the English stay culturally Celtic and therefore never become English?

 

[Jonathan1997]

Wales and Scotland are mountainous which makes it harder to grow crops leading to a lower population. As for the Irish and Gaelic and tribal cultures in the British isles is seen as barbaric with English principal culture being primary French in thought and deed.

 

[pompejus]

To not have various acts of reprisal due to violent history and eye-for-an-eye actions then you basically have to completely change the history of the British Isles. And it's a universal change on all sides that is needed. Because no one was innocent back then.

Maybe if the English stay culturally Celtic and therefore never become English?

I doubt the Scots raided the English because they were English. I think the Scots raided the English because they could. If there were Celts living south of Scotland, the Scots would have raided the Celts.

 

[HARRY]

It is kind of wrong to say Union of Crowns as the Scots & the English had shared a monarch since James the first/fifth it was a union of parliaments. Scottish nobles lost heavily in the Darien Scheme an attempt to colonize the isthmus of Panama, in return for debt relief and seats in the house of lord they sold out to the parliament in London. As they adapted to the south style of Lordship due to marriage and isolation from their fellow clansmen they put profit via sheep farming over historical loyalty. Crofters were removed from their tenant land to make way for flocks with the wool sent south to York wool mills.

 

[Tarthman]

I believe that the worst things England did to Scotland were before the union of the crowns. Actualy Scotland profited a lot from the union. Most actions "England"did to Scotland during the union were instigated by other Scots, not by the English.

Glad someone said this. Scotland was by no means oppressed. They benefited greatly from the union and the British empire. It’s the Irish and Welsh who got the brunt of the cruelty. Such as punishing the Welsh for speaking their native tongue and drowning an entire village, so that Liverpool could have water. With Irish, you had the potato famine and colonisation by both England and Scotland.

 

[Socrates]

Glad someone said this. Scotland was by no means oppressed. They benefited greatly from the union and the British empire. It’s the Irish and Welsh who got the brunt of the cruelty. Such as punishing the Welsh for speaking their native tongue and drowning an entire village, so that Liverpool could have water. With Irish, you had the potato famine and colonisation by both England and Scotland.

Prior to 1707 Scotland was divided between a backwards tribal clan culture in the hills and ultra zealous puritan bigoted one in the lowlands. Under the Union they became a center of Enlightenment, science and industry.

 

[Deleted member 90563]

How would that make relations between the english and scots better? An independant Scotland just means the two countries are going to be rivals.

Without the union, Scotland would be financially completely broke due to the Darien scheme. They would hardly be wealthy enough to become rivals.