Henry VIII's reign without the Break with Rome

[Fabius Maximus]

There have been a lot of threads about the long-term effects of England remaining Catholic, but I thought it would be interesting to focus on Henry's reign specifically. IOTL, of course, the Break with Rome and its ramifications dominated the second half of Henry's reign, so how would things go if Henry remains a loyal son of the Church? How tolerant would he be of the nascent English Protestant movement? (Not very, I'm guessing, given his OTL actions.) What sort of foreign policy would he pursue? And how would he be remembered by later generations? Would he be known as a magnificent Renaissance prince, or would he be more or less forgotten?

 

[CaesarKhan]

Assuming he still has issues with a male heir, he would probably be remembered due to the end of the short-lived Tudor dynasty, though without the whole mythology around the mad king with his 6 wives, he definitely wouldn't be as much of a phenomenon.

As for his reign, I don't see him achieving much beyond what he did in reality. He would try to play France and the Habsburgs against one another, occasionally changing sides when he thought it best suited him, ultimately getting nothing out of the political meddling besides some dead soldiers and empty coffers.

If he continues being a strong voice for Catholicism, perhaps continuing to write rebuttals to Protestant ideas like that which earned him the title 'defender of the faith', he could be quite well respected in Catholic circles as a pious King (would be fun to imagine a St. Henry timeline lol, however unlikely it may be). Indeed I think he would stay hostile to England's growing protestant movement, likely being able to stamp it out before it get's too unruly

 

[Nuraghe]

There have been a lot of threads about the long-term effects of England remaining Catholic, but I thought it would be interesting to focus on Henry's reign specifically. IOTL, of course, the Break with Rome and its ramifications dominated the second half of Henry's reign, so how would things go if Henry remains a loyal son of the Church? How tolerant would he be of the nascent English Protestant movement? (Not very, I'm guessing, given his OTL actions.) What sort of foreign policy would he pursue? And how would he be remembered by later generations? Would he be known as a magnificent Renaissance prince, or would he be more or less forgotten?

excellent question, then we all know why Henry VIII Otl is mainly remembered, but if we start from the principle that for some reason he does not want to separate from Rome ( either because Catherine gave him male children who survived, or because for some strange reason he convinces that God has truly chosen that his pearl, his Princess Mary can become a splendid queen or something else, after all the reason is not relevant now ) starting from this the changes that we will see immediately are many, starting from the dissolution of the monasteries ( which starts under Wolsey, so I see it probably happening here too, but it will be quite controlled compared to Otl ) probably the persecutions that Otl its opponents have suffered will also be experienced by Protestants ( which I still see spreading across the kingdom, mainly located in the South East , between the nobility and the bourgeoisie, who, similarly to what happened in France, will oppose attempts to centralize royal power ) probably we will not see the iconoclastic fury strike the sites and religious works present in the kingdom ( allowing posterity to receive small and large masterpieces, lost by us Otl ), certainly Wolsey and More will not come to a bad end ( and this also increases the their possibility of making a further career in the church, with the former being able to try again for the papacy, the latter being awarded the cardinal's cape ), finally I see Henry always tending to balance Charles and Francis ( remaining in agreement with the papacy, which is also quite interested in creating a sort of balance between the two ) furthermore I see him very interested in supporting the formation of an ecumenical council ( which perhaps here will be able start earlier, perhaps as Paul III wanted in 1538 compared to 1545 Otl ) and will not be seen as a mere political tool of the emperor ( given that Otl, the French were opposed to participating because it potentially helped the Habsburgs in containing the Reformation , by doing so they hoped to discredit the council because according to them, it would only have been a meeting of pro-imperial ecclesiastics and therefore not really representing the whole church, to resolve the problem the death of Francis and the growing danger represented by the Calvinists in France were needed to convince the king to send his representatives )

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Assuming he still has issues with a male heir, he would probably be remembered due to the end of the short-lived Tudor dynasty, though without the whole mythology around the mad king with his 6 wives, he definitely wouldn't be as much of a phenomenon.

To be fair, you could still get him through six wives, even if he remains Catholic:

• Have Catherine of Aragon die of natural causes some time before matters with Rome come to a head, so Henry has no impetus to found his own Church.
• Anne Boleyn still catches the King's eye; with Catherine conveniently dead, Henry is able to marry her without a hitch, but turns against her as IOTL and executes her, which he could equally well do as a Catholic monarch as a Protestant. (Of course, Henry would lack the disappointment of "I changed the whole national religion for this girl and she can't even give me a son," but maybe we could get around that by saying that his jousting accident is even worse than IOTL, and Henry himself becomes proportionately more bloodthirsty and paranoid as a result.)
• Jane Seymour died of natural causes, so no change needed.
• Anne of Cleeves was annulled on grounds of non-consummation, which I believe is grounds for annullment in the Catholic Church as well.
• Catherine Howard was executed for adultery, which Henry could still do as a Catholic.
• Catherine Parr outlived him, so no change needed.

In such a scenario he might be remembered as even more of a bloody tyrant than IOTL, since he'd get a bad rap for changing (and killing) so many wives, without the countervailing good rap for being England's first Protestant king. On the other hand, he probably wouldn't dissolve the network of English monasteries, which were the closest thing the country had to a social security system, so his reputation wouldn't suffer for this.

starting from the dissolution of the monasteries ( which starts under Wolsey, so I see it probably happening here too, but it will be quite controlled compared to Otl )

I expect it would be more ad hoc, as in, the King wants to found a new school or college somewhere, so he dissolves a convenient monastery and redirects its lands towards his new project. Without the impetus of the Reformation, I don't think there would be a wholesale dissolution like we saw IOTL.

certainly Wolsey and More will not come to a bad end ( and this also increases the their possibility of making a further career in the church, with the former being able to try again for the papacy, the latter being awarded the cardinal's cape ),

Wolsey died of natural causes towards the start of the King's Great Matter, so I don't expect him to make another play for the papacy. More was a married layman, and hence, under normal circumstances, ineligible to become a cardinal -- are you sure you're not thinking of the other famous Henrician martyr, John Fisher?

furthermore I see him very interested in supporting the formation of an ecumenical council ( which perhaps here will be able start earlier, perhaps as Paul III wanted in 1538 compared to 1545 Otl ) and will not be seen as a mere political tool of the emperor ( given that Otl, the French were opposed to participating because it potentially helped the Habsburgs in containing the Reformation , by doing so they hoped to discredit the council because according to them, it would only have been a meeting of pro-imperial ecclesiastics and therefore not really representing the whole church, to resolve the problem the death of Francis and the growing danger represented by the Calvinists in France were needed to convince the king to send his representatives )

Interesting. So what (if any) would be the consequences of Trent starting seven years earlier? Would there be any places where Protestantism spread IOTL that it wouldn't spread if the Catholic Church gets its act together a few years sooner, for example?

 

[Nuraghe]

To be fair, you could still get him through six wives, even if he remains Catholic:

• Have Catherine of Aragon die of natural causes some time before matters with Rome come to a head, so Henry has no impetus to found his own Church.
• Anne Boleyn still catches the King's eye; with Catherine conveniently dead, Henry is able to marry her without a hitch, but turns against her as IOTL and executes her, which he could equally well do as a Catholic monarch as a Protestant. (Of course, Henry would lack the disappointment of "I changed the whole national religion for this girl and she can't even give me a son," but maybe we could get around that by saying that his jousting accident is even worse than IOTL, and Henry himself becomes proportionately more bloodthirsty and paranoid as a result.)
• Jane Seymour died of natural causes, so no change needed.
• Anne of Cleeves was annulled on grounds of non-consummation, which I believe is grounds for annullment in the Catholic Church as well.
• Catherine Howard was executed for adultery, which Henry could still do as a Catholic.
• Catherine Parr outlived him, so no change needed.

In such a scenario he might be remembered as even more of a bloody tyrant than IOTL, since he'd get a bad rap for changing (and killing) so many wives, without the countervailing good rap for being England's first Protestant king. On the other hand, he probably wouldn't dissolve the network of English monasteries, which were the closest thing the country had to a social security system, so his reputation wouldn't suffer for this.


I expect it would be more ad hoc, as in, the King wants to found a new school or college somewhere, so he dissolves a convenient monastery and redirects its lands towards his new project. Without the impetus of the Reformation, I don't think there would be a wholesale dissolution like we saw IOTL.

Wolsey died of natural causes towards the start of the King's Great Matter, so I don't expect him to make another play for the papacy. More was a married layman, and hence, under normal circumstances, ineligible to become a cardinal -- are you sure you're not thinking of the other famous Henrician martyr, John Fisher?

Interesting. So what (if any) would be the consequences of Trent starting seven years earlier? Would there be any places where Protestantism spread IOTL that it wouldn't spread if the Catholic Church gets its act together a few years sooner, for example?

so when I argue that the dissolution of the monasteries will happen, I mean more like what happened at the same time in Spain, France or Italy, where the pontiff had given his consent to suppress those deemed non-compliant ( only if there was solid evidence to prove it ) yes I was probably wrong with Fisher ( as far as Wolsey is concerned he actually died of natural causes but the stress caused by trying to resolve ( through legal means ) the great matter in favor of Henry certainly didn't help his health ) regarding a an early council means a greater and faster response to the reform ( especially if we consider that the Otl Counter-Reformation started only after the end of Trent, therefore in 1563 ), perhaps allowing some additional minor territories in the HRE to remain under Catholicism, and is possibly a lesser violent response to the spread of Protestantism ( I'm not saying that there won't be wars of religion, but if it remains contained for example in Northern Germany and Scandinavia, I don't see Rome too willing to recover those territories unlike Otl where even France has dangerously risked falling or a Protestant Emperor ( as almost threatened in 30YW ), causing real mass hysteria in the Roman curia ), perhaps this can help the emperor in an improved ATL Peace of Augsburg with the aim of avoiding further religious conflicts ( especially if the Protestants are mostly confined to the North of the Reich and far from the heart of the Habsburg lands ) like for example Otl Reginald Pole, if Henry remains Catholic he can actually become the new pontiff ( because there will be two more cardinals at the conclave to vote, so as to reach the quorum, given that Otl England normally had 3 cardinals available in this period )