Harsher treaty of Versailles?
- Thread starter Unkown00
- Start date
This. That treaty was pretty awful to Germany, and I sincerely don't know how to make it worse in a way that doesn't cause Europe to become a greater disaster than the one we know.
Problem being that the only country that could vesably enforce that is about to go back into isolationism and dint even except the treaty as it was, Britain and France just dint have the resources anymore to enforce something like this.
Good luck to the British and French economies recovering from the war, not to mention handling Vietnam on steroids afterwards. And get ready for New Soviet Men marching through Germany in 20 to 30 years.
Split the rhineland between france and Belgium, recognize the Bavarian commune as independent state to force germany out of it, and pawn silesia on someone else. Probably the harshest possible treaty
History Learner
Banned
How, exactly, did the situation come about? If we're taking the Entente suddenly in early 1919 decides to push for a worse treaty, that's going to end a lot differently than, say, other circumstances.
Trials for whoever first used poison gas and anyone involved in ordering the invasion of Belgium and other crimes in violation of treaties that Germany signed
I think a better question is how is the Entente going to enforce this. The USA is not going to be keeping troops in Europe, Anglo-French troops are sick and tired of war, the Anglo-French economies are teetering on the brink, Ireland is threatening to break out in revolt, and both Britain and France are seething with Communist sympathies.
What's going to happen here is that the US Senate will refuse to ratify any treaty, Wilson gets his OTL stroke, the Democrats lose the 1920 election, and the Republican President promptly withdraws troops from Europe and signs a separate peace with Germany. The British and the French try to enforce the treaty on their own, and find themselves bogged down in a bloody insurgency as Germans fight back against the dismemberment and rape of their country. British and French troops start mutinying to the left and right with communes and soviets popping up all over the place. A general strike takes place in Britain, the British Army gets sent in to suppress it, and causes London and other cities to erupt in gigantic riots as strikers and mutinying troops fight it out with loyalists. Bombings and assassinations take place across France as Communists rise up against the French government, backed by mutinying troops and citizens sick and tired of war.
What's going to happen here is that the US Senate will refuse to ratify any treaty, Wilson gets his OTL stroke, the Democrats lose the 1920 election, and the Republican President promptly withdraws troops from Europe and signs a separate peace with Germany. The British and the French try to enforce the treaty on their own, and find themselves bogged down in a bloody insurgency as Germans fight back against the dismemberment and rape of their country. British and French troops start mutinying to the left and right with communes and soviets popping up all over the place. A general strike takes place in Britain, the British Army gets sent in to suppress it, and causes London and other cities to erupt in gigantic riots as strikers and mutinying troops fight it out with loyalists. Bombings and assassinations take place across France as Communists rise up against the French government, backed by mutinying troops and citizens sick and tired of war.
So from that perhaps we could see a German version of the Sèvres-Lausanne readjustment, a British Republic and maybe even a Red France?
Dunno about a British republic, but Germany adjusting the Treaty of Versailles is possible here, even if only because their enemies self-destructed out of their greed and vindictiveness. Red France is very likely if the government decides to go all-in and obliterate Germany no matter the cost, a cost that neither the citizens nor the troops are willing to pay anymore.
History Learner
Banned
Given OTL's setup, the Treaty you got was as about as harsh as it could be; even then, there were many in Germany who saw it as intolerable and worth restarting the fight over. Given the strategic balance, the Entente could not enforce even the OTL Treaty if the Germans had went down such a fight.
Well, a good POD could be Russia not dropping out of the war and either the Russian Empire or the Provisional Government hanging on until the end of the war. As for the terms of said treaty, here could be a good start.
I can imagine one a bit worse than that, should a resurgent Russia *somehow* gain the upper hand in the East and remain an Entente power for the duration. Churchill's famous speech about an "iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste" may have become a reality about 25 years early...
Unless we are talking complet e kangaroo court you can’t pull off a trial of folks for using gas when the other side jumped on that with both feet.
As for making it harsher.. As said the US will NOT help with that and may just get a lot nastier in its relations with its Alies.
And if somehow Germany starts a WW2 you will see a lot less positive support of England.
You May also see support from Australia and perhaps India and Canada evaporate if they push such a harsh treaty that it turns into a forced occu with gorilla combat. Australia was not very happy with the Boar war for various reasons believeping at least in part that they had been sold a bill of goods about the war then had their troops badly lead killed off from incompetence and generally miss treated (can you say Breaker Morant?). So they were not all that happy with GB. Add in the mess the Anzacs suffered through in that farce of an amphibious invasion and it probably won’t take much fighting in Germany over an obviously over the top treaty to have them take their troops and go home.
So does England want to risk the Empire to help France trash its continental rival?
For that ,after if the fighting gets to bad and the US pulls out you may get a popular opposition forming in england itself. And being as England was already worried about the Communist tossing out and butchering its royal family this could get very interesting.
So yes the treaty can be worse but it will be almost as bad for England and France as it is for Germany.
As for making it harsher.. As said the US will NOT help with that and may just get a lot nastier in its relations with its Alies.
And if somehow Germany starts a WW2 you will see a lot less positive support of England.
You May also see support from Australia and perhaps India and Canada evaporate if they push such a harsh treaty that it turns into a forced occu with gorilla combat. Australia was not very happy with the Boar war for various reasons believeping at least in part that they had been sold a bill of goods about the war then had their troops badly lead killed off from incompetence and generally miss treated (can you say Breaker Morant?). So they were not all that happy with GB. Add in the mess the Anzacs suffered through in that farce of an amphibious invasion and it probably won’t take much fighting in Germany over an obviously over the top treaty to have them take their troops and go home.
So does England want to risk the Empire to help France trash its continental rival?
For that ,after if the fighting gets to bad and the US pulls out you may get a popular opposition forming in england itself. And being as England was already worried about the Communist tossing out and butchering its royal family this could get very interesting.
So yes the treaty can be worse but it will be almost as bad for England and France as it is for Germany.
I think Germany might just not accept such a treaty. They have leverage at this point, though not enough to win, and so any breakup of Germany would fail due to soldiers not wanting to die excessively. Same with the Rhineland probably. I don't think Belgium would want to let Germans vote in their Parliament in such large amounts, and otherwise ethnic cleansing would have to happen, which is impossible physically.